#033: Growing the Vision: Boston and the Future of Cyberpunk

00:00:01: Hello everybody and welcome to the answer podcast.

00:00:03: My name is Paweł Buża, And as always I am joined

00:00:05: by Pawel

00:00:06: Mielniczyk

00:00:06: The art director for project

00:00:08: Hater.

00:00:08: Hey everyone today we'll be meeting special guests from North American studio Gabe Amatangelo the game director and Igor Sajeński the creative Director We will talking about.

00:00:18: the Studio will be reminiscing the Cybermark twenty seven seven infant liberty and discussing how the vision of the Game is crafted.

00:00:26: It's a super interesting conversation, but please be aware there won't be many spoilers when it comes to Cyberpunk II so don't wait for that.

00:00:33: But we might hear about what the guys think about.

00:00:37: Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven Phantom Liberty The baggage that they have came from that game and how They are shaping the future in Boston is an exciting episode.

00:00:47: can't wait For it.

00:00:48: So let's meet our guests.

00:00:53: All right

00:00:53: Igor.

00:00:54: Gabe, welcome to the podcast officially all the way from Boston.

00:00:59: So before we start for those listening to the podcasts would like you guys introduce yourselves tell us a little bit about yourself and then will start with first questions?

00:01:08: Sure.

00:01:09: I am Gabe Amitangelo.

00:01:11: I'm Game Director on Cyberpunk Seventy-Seven Afterlaunch and Phantom Liberty and now Cyberpunk Two Nice.

00:01:21: So many things Cyberpunk been here for six years now, damn time flies

00:01:28: crazy

00:01:29: and before that Bioware EA number of other places.

00:01:34: My name is Gorszecznicki.

00:01:35: I'm a creative director also on cyberpunk too.

00:01:38: Herefor Now i don't know.

00:01:40: thirteen fourteen years Wow started in QA In Game Dev actually company man.

00:01:46: so it's always been CDPR And maybe It Always Will Be.

00:01:49: Actually I cannot imagine myself anywhere else.

00:01:52: Man, just love this project!

00:01:54: And right now i'm managing all things narrative and worldbuilding and lore.

00:01:59: so yeah creating the expression of the word of sorts story characters quest design also audio music anything that like expresses The Story I guess

00:02:09: Beautiful beautiful.

00:02:11: So let's start from an overall.

00:02:14: kind-of thing starts when we're talking about a game or project, this is vision.

00:02:19: So how do you establish a vision for your projects?

00:02:24: Especially looking from the perspective of people who are high level directors on Cyberpunk.

00:02:29: two

00:02:30: sure.

00:02:31: so at The beginning especially with a sequel We kind there's lots of conversations that just happen organically over time With various other stakeholders and you start to just kind of form something in your mind, like a starting point.

00:02:49: And then based on that starting point I mean people have different creative processes.

00:02:53: part of my creative process is based on those touchstones or starting points where it's at the air.

00:03:00: i'll go reach out other pieces art medium whether its watching an anime playing another game reading book what-have-you started formulated bit cloud kind of way and then have conversations with other kinda trusted creatives like Igor, Pavel Sasco.

00:03:24: I was gonna say lots of Pavels right?

00:03:26: And that eventually you start to form something and the next step is put it on paper figuring out how to articulate the thoughts and ideas.

00:03:44: And so writing it down, I have various exercises of being like okay...I wrote what this game is in five sentences.

00:03:53: How do i distill that into one sentence?

00:03:55: And then try stuff with people.

00:03:58: There's so much you can talk about sort-of..how to establish a vision.

00:04:01: we could talk about pillars We can get deep into but think thats just kind of quick overview.

00:04:06: Anything you wanted to add Igor

00:04:09: big part as you mentioned with the sequel is also evaluating in a previous game, kind of talking about what we liked.

00:04:16: What had potential but we could push it further?

00:04:19: What elements maybe are not necessarily going forward because I don't know they didn't pan out or really feel that would be better to put our work into something else which will be more valuable for the game and also in terms creating vision at least from story narrative side other works, but also I think especially with cyberpunk looking at least somewhat towards the real world because we kind of like... i think you all know that we already live in Cyberpunk.

00:04:49: Like most elements are here minus maybe Cyberware and even i guess you could start making arguments for this.

00:04:56: And of course We don't want our game ever to be didactic anyway To have a very strong messaging toward something.

00:05:05: But it should Again, especially cyberpunk kind of get in dialogue with some like real life deems.

00:05:12: So this was also part of our discussion how to make this game not just entertainment but something meaningful for the times we live on?

00:05:21: With twenty seventy seven I feel it's redefining what Cyberpunk is and what people believe Cyberpunk as We've always been talking about the fact that you know where were showing a cyberpunk daylight present and that is not only night.

00:05:35: And it's not acid rain, and it's something we've kind of expect from Cyberpunk.

00:05:40: It's

00:05:40: like waking up in Vegas and going outside on the morning feeling.

00:05:45: Fantastic

00:05:47: feeling!

00:05:47: So what kinds of details are you doing at the vision stage?

00:05:50: What should be how high level the vision should be or how detailed this?

00:05:54: Are talking about individual features, individual elements... Talking about storylines.. What was there to complete

00:06:00: it?

00:06:02: We're gonna talk about something called the game development framework.

00:06:05: I think later on getting

00:06:07: ahead

00:06:08: of it Remind our viewers, what is so?

00:06:09: The Game Development Framework Is Kind Of the stages of making a game and each of these stages has A different label.

00:06:18: that isn't indicative of What you're doing in this stage.

00:06:21: And course the first stage is vision excuse me In the vision state, and then I guess i'll talk about The others.

00:06:27: in the next stage is the concept phase And then after that Is pre-production?

00:06:31: Then you get into production Phase.

00:06:33: And the production phase could be broken down Into various different ways pre alpha alpha beta it varies by project.

00:06:40: uh...in the vision Stage the main deliverable is a something called A razor statement Which is distilling Down until like one two sentences what this game is What It's About.

00:06:52: Um, and when you read it.

00:06:54: You can tell kind of like how It is unique or has its place in the market?

00:06:59: The razor Like How does that cut off?

00:07:01: but you know Its uh

00:07:03: um

00:07:04: ideas like how do you cut off the ideas?

00:07:06: And then you establish the pillars the high-level Pillars and you could have four pillars five pillars six pillars.

00:07:14: But in these pillars to answer your question You try to hit the the kind of the breadth of the game.

00:07:21: you don't really necessarily get into the specific features unless it's necessary to kind of frame an example.

00:07:29: Yeah, I feel like believability has always been something that we as a company try to do even early on.

00:07:35: Like the characters should be...like you said relatable they should be characters that you can kind of imagine that you would meet or characters that maybe are going through something that you might be going throughout at a given time in your life.

00:07:47: and i think that's what always resonated when it comes to CDPR games And we've seen this also from people who were writing Like this game helped me a lot.

00:07:58: I was going through similar things or if it's things connected to, I don't know identity and stuff like that.

00:08:03: these are important things And people really resonate with that.

00:08:06: but then on the other hand there should be This element of fun Of stuff That kind of video games give you which is just pure entertainment right?

00:08:16: But i feel good entertainment Is kinda The kind like full engagement where you're actually thinking about, oh this is this resonates with me.

00:08:25: This works for me.

00:08:25: and then I feel like your invest yourself a little bit more into the whole process.

00:08:30: A little bit of balance between an always interesting discussion for us between entertainment and art?

00:08:37: I think entertainment gives what we are looking And art challenges you a little bit in like what you are expecting.

00:08:45: What how easy it is for your so emotionally going through those stories and we're trying to find this, like sweet spot in the middle.

00:08:52: that's like yeah

00:08:53: I have a good story about this.

00:08:54: uh i was two weeks ago.

00:08:56: i was pumping gas In my car and i went and i had our cyberpunk t-shirt and clerk said To me he's Like oh cyberpunk It Was it?

00:09:04: Was A shell station Which Is Just Here Next To The Office.

00:09:07: He Was Like.

00:09:09: I Played That Game.

00:09:10: I'm Like.

00:09:11: And what do you think?

00:09:14: Well, all the endings they were kind of sad.

00:09:18: I'm like.

00:09:19: well there's supposed to have this internal reflection and stuff like that but he was just sad!

00:09:27: Like...I thought it would get a better ending.

00:09:32: Welcome to Night City.

00:09:32: There is no happy endings.

00:09:35: Oh, yeah.

00:09:37: It's like all these things that you know?

00:09:39: Like and I feel like people.

00:09:42: they thought okay in Cyberpunk is going to be kind of black-and-white but there was a lot of shades of gray And it was about super deep feelings.

00:09:53: So its one those games That makes me reflect.

00:09:59: We did the same with Edge Runners cut off the couch and I was like, damn no.

00:10:06: No need to process

00:10:07: that.".

00:10:08: Like all these things there if you come back to them after watching something or playing something or reading something That means they are meaningful enough And they have resonated with you in such a magnitude You're willing kind of ponder ponder think about it.

00:10:26: What if this happened, what?

00:10:27: If he or she did that then maybe the story would go a different way.

00:10:31: Like there's a lot of like engagement you feel feeling like you really need to be in it right.

00:10:37: sorry yeah we'd like too.

00:10:41: You know pose questions.

00:10:42: exactly.

00:10:43: Yeah

00:10:45: We think alike and we liked to pose questions.

00:10:47: We like to put you in scenarios where were not telling you the outcome.

00:10:51: but we're being honest about The duality the shades of gray, we're not trying to paint stuff as black and white.

00:10:59: As you said And that I think can get really into the lane of entertainment versus art which is um We like for you to consider mm-hmm and Um yeah i mean we have we have a lot of fun with That.

00:11:15: we did that and now i'm trying too because i'm heavily in The cyberpunk two.

00:11:18: but Yeah just going back To phantom liberty as You were saying there.

00:11:21: Like Each of those endings even the new ending that we introduced it was like, okay.

00:11:27: Let's flip It let's make it not all that.

00:11:29: it's like your Spoiler alert.

00:11:33: I guess i could say hope

00:11:34: everybody has play fun on liberty.

00:11:35: if not i'm Like what are you doing?

00:11:37: Cuz it Was like in each Of The things You you die or probably Are going to Die and We're like Okay, let's Make it That you don't die.

00:11:44: but it's Not that Simple.

00:11:47: Like life is still tough, things are still complicated.

00:11:50: There's cost to these choices that kind of stuff because it's the real world right?

00:11:55: But at the same time, it's cinematic true story because there is still that fun element.

00:11:59: There are larger-than-life elements and framing to really get you engaged in considering.

00:12:05: ponder those true stories aspects.

00:12:08: We try to pose questions and provide players with a buffet of interesting answers And then your ending was this answer to Dex's question from Prologue quite life or blaze of glory, and we felt like we're missing this one answer.

00:12:24: But it's not the only answer that you are giving – there is a bunch!

00:12:26: And also when thinking about vision… You asked one hundred fifty minutes ago what was the level of detail?

00:12:36: We try to stay with fairly simple but evocative statements... Not even statement, sometimes they have questions.

00:12:43: for example think also about providing vision, like on a lower level for specific quest lines or different themes in the game.

00:12:51: We almost always try to phrase them as problems or questions that given quests are.

00:12:56: character as a vehicle for this allows you to explore but it's not any given statement about the world.

00:13:06: and just as far as managing goes because there is natural tendency for individual developers, individual artists to have an answer in their mind.

00:13:15: And then they start putting that answer on paper and it's sort of our discipline to say hey no we're not preaching take that answer away like give the scenario Yeah, yeah.

00:13:28: I

00:13:31: think because you know there's an opinion game that making games is hard right?

00:13:35: And it is hard obviously and but some people thing its coding his heart Right.

00:13:40: other things here There's a massive amount of hours to be done.

00:13:42: Other things oh this all these big teams to manage.

00:13:44: You know All the people too take care off at Dushart But we're all experts in those fields.

00:13:50: We actually now how to do those things.

00:13:51: What's hardest i feel Is just keeping everyone aligned about what kind Of Game are trying To Do Because The result is years ahead and at the very beginning you just have paper, your ideas.

00:14:04: Everybody has its own opinion of what it might be.

00:14:07: so What kind of methods do you have to implant the same thoughts?

00:14:11: Same idea or picture if even possible into heads for all developers in a team?

00:14:17: Thank You that's great question.

00:14:19: When we were talking about GDF different phases like vision phase Anything to play you don't have really anything too experienced right?

00:14:33: the next phase concept phase You start to get some prototypes, right?

00:14:36: So you have something that play.

00:14:37: so in The vision stage one thing I like to do and i did this on phantom liberty when we first kicked off phantom Liberty is create a video.

00:14:46: Because because Like getting cuz it's like if you Have like you know fifty people hundred People two hundred people how Do you convey all This stuff?

00:14:53: And You know, some people like to read documents.

00:14:56: Some don't.

00:14:57: so putting together a video and figuring out how do you layer in some reference art?

00:15:02: Some reference material just to paint the picture.

00:15:06: we'd like to point to movies To books stuff like that too kind of also game references for certain gameplay features And things Like this but with This.

00:15:17: So that's an important aspect in the vision stage.

00:15:19: But honestly, I could talk so long about it because there is like how do you set up the architecture of just building the team product owners meeting structure all these things?

00:15:31: but maybe we can get into more detail later and let Igor chime-in a bit on this?

00:15:37: I think its always a little dance between top down vision keeping the coherence versus being actually open to what the team wants to bring.

00:15:51: So usually, I have this little diamond diagram which illustrates for me how do you work with creative side of game development?

00:16:00: You start at one point on that diamond and it's a small thing that creates division in the game where there are not too many people who want something as we said before like concise but really impactful.

00:16:13: Then as more people like join your project and also, especially games of our type are enormous.

00:16:19: Like a small group of people cannot design and manage it you need to spread the ownership direction in a way too.

00:16:27: your team.

00:16:28: More people joined their teams And they want to create the world with open-world games and thrill wars are just so complex and weird unexpected Again, like one person sitting down and deciding every factor.

00:16:42: it would ring false because world is not like this.

00:16:44: You want to imbue your world with all those different sensibilities and ideas and weird little perspectives of everyone on you team.

00:16:56: so as it starts to grow... ...you allow people start adding their own ideas to the mix And none of them are hit.

00:17:03: but often you get things like completely weren't expecting, but oh my god this is great.

00:17:08: It enhances our vision actually and makes the world more complex, more interesting.

00:17:14: so then you start adding, adding, add.

00:17:16: in midway I think through that project And once you have enough ideas probably too many This time also to square it against production a little bit You start cutting down again.

00:17:28: So we don't have time between those two things.

00:17:31: Let's do these.

00:17:33: This will be more valuable.

00:17:35: Sometimes you don't even need that much variety because you want to express a specific idea, so as we're getting closer and closer it's again becoming a little bit more held by.

00:17:44: like vision group let say making sure the final product has sharp edges in this but think at the end is not the thing that you designed in the middle.

00:17:58: I love this part of creative process where through working with people, you end up like two plus two equals five but in a good way.

00:18:09: It's absolutely true and I think that it is important not to get too attached this initial vision.

00:18:15: make also very broad focus on the important topics rather than pinpointing an individual feature...I'm sure i want this yeah!

00:18:22: But in process team will prove we don't actually need something else.

00:18:27: You want all right.

00:18:27: create a version integrate of sorts and it starts working like within them rather than giving them instruction.

00:18:37: Just do this, make the door blue without understanding or feeling that from my perspective at least from narrative feelings and emotions people bring to table are are the actual thing that later people resonate with, like our stories and our characters wouldn't be so impactful if our writers and designers would bring a little bit of themselves to this.

00:19:01: And sometimes these are difficult topics but they're the ones who tell it's really impactful or maybe cross between entertainment and art.

00:19:15: The challenge is Because you're talking about that diamond and the Diamond in a macro sense over the whole project, but it's even within like sprints and milestones Right where we got to close things then.

00:19:25: And also when you have like three four hundred people whatever It is Making sure that everyone's ideas are even In the same genre an aligned and stuff Like That Is A trick?

00:19:37: As Igor was saying having Everyone's Contributions But making Sure its The contributions Within the Parameters.

00:19:44: It's challenging and the main way like at least that the tactic I like to do is Like, I tell each of my reports.

00:19:51: Like you guys like Igor Pavel You know Aaron like you guys are game directors as well?

00:19:56: Like the ideas we meet every week Multiple times but we have this like two-hour session than we do every week where we talk about all The different things.

00:20:06: And so I say like Ryan like if your in he's our design director If you're in a meeting and the team needs some feedback to move forward on a topic.

00:20:16: Obviously, when it comes to gameplay you're gonna know but we are in this meeting so that you can also understand story little bit So We Can Talk About...so You Can Unlock The People And Let Them Move Forward.

00:20:26: Because If They Are Waiting On Me Or Igor To Show Up Like You'Re Never Gonna Make A Game It Just Ain't Gonna Happen At This Scale.

00:20:34: And I like Call It The Hive Mine I Try To Give Like Me or Ryan Aaron Pauvel Everyone just thinking the same creatively as much as possible never happens a hundred percent.

00:20:46: But if you hit that eighty percent mark, then you're just scheduled like twenty percent for that misalignment so to speak and Then of course after my reports And it's like its Igor's report.

00:20:56: So he does the same thing in and so on and you cascade It down.

00:20:59: yeah two win.

00:21:00: then Everyone has this like cascading parameters within the game as a whole that they know how to put their heart into it and contribute on, uh-on thing.

00:21:10: And it fits in the game right?

00:21:11: So if someone on our team is presenting characters or scenario like that They don't have all of the parameters Right!

00:21:18: That would be too off field.

00:21:19: It's about how you bring them in.

00:21:24: Yeah, I feel like calibration is super important.

00:21:27: Everybody especially with... Like you mentioned the games are not getting smaller they're getting bigger.

00:21:32: They're more ambitious and everybody needs to be kind of on The same wavelength.

00:21:36: And i feel like With big projects Especially in the early phases when we were talking about vision a lot Of things tend To change and everybody should Be kind of knowing what's changing why We're making certain decisions Why?

00:21:49: in a given direction so they can later, like you said cascaded to other team members.

00:21:54: So they also become calibrated and then the whole diamond thing kind of makes sense.

00:21:59: but what about?

00:22:01: A moment where you actually need to be going down or when you need to cutting stuff because we always talk about adding yeah great Like alot cool ideas But there is this harsh reality that it needs checked.

00:22:18: with production, are we maybe doing a little bit too much or were going to wide?

00:22:23: Maybe you should be kind of cutting some things changing.

00:22:26: Some things on the go.

00:22:27: what about these things like?

00:22:28: because they're also important for I have so many projects

00:22:30: and fan liberty example.

00:22:34: So The scene where Where you meet songbird at the rooftop in the shooting down

00:22:42: Excuse me Yeah

00:22:43: i remember so many times Like We tried different Things And I was trying to say, like no.

00:22:48: Like this and we got two point where it's like We couldn't do many more iterations?

00:22:53: So here i'm just gonna write the script.

00:22:56: Here is what I mean because for whatever reason I wasn't able to communicate each of team members well enough To execute.

00:23:02: so im going to write a script.

00:23:05: That an example when you have get down into details but don't like doing that a lot.

00:23:10: And I remember the casino scene, whatever it was okay this casino scene is not coming together because there's so many moving parts.

00:23:20: It was like Igor.

00:23:21: you and I are on the same page.

00:23:22: manage more closely.

00:23:25: So as we get in there You have to pick certain key moments That your like.

00:23:30: Okay i have to manage one more directly As almost an IC and individual contributor But if u have do that across too much then you're in trouble.

00:23:40: Like, your never gonna deliver the game but it's okay to find some spots and be like for whatever reason not able to communicate or there was a sudden change at that end.

00:23:49: than you gotta step-in type thing.

00:23:51: The Chimera is another one talk about as well because like the Chimera, and this guy was on Fan of Liberty as well.

00:23:57: We should be interviewing you too there

00:23:59: following

00:23:59: the new chick who's the art director?

00:24:01: And um... Like theres also sometimes where we're creating certain content that is such a nexus point of different disciplines That it becomes-and The Chimeras are great example for that.

00:24:11: It was gameplay, narrative, art, world building.

00:24:15: I remember Pavel and I sending each other YouTube videos of various different military equipment, or those guns.

00:24:23: I forget what these guns are called...

00:24:25: Yeah because

00:24:26: we're like when this camera rises up We just want it to terrify you with the overwhelming sound You can't even hear

00:24:35: the bullets bullet hell.

00:24:41: I think it was two years to make this boss fight work actually.

00:24:44: Yeah,

00:24:44: you're

00:24:45: reiterating over and over

00:24:47: so many moving parts but sometimes It was too gameplay Sometimes it was too narrative You know?

00:24:55: art demonstration and it was about striking that balance.

00:24:58: And so like

00:24:59: I think the story

00:25:01: got into it, we're like okay beat by beat let's do this.

00:25:05: But in terms of scoping and deciding which ideas with time you have left or resources Our production method kind of lends itself to it, which is agile where you always plan and set a backlog with just a list of priorities.

00:25:21: You go from the top like sure that we would do everything but then find out if there's time for this?

00:25:28: That's okay.

00:25:30: in terms of changes also case study from Phantom Liberty new epilogue added

00:25:37: until

00:25:38: halfway through production was different story darker, more cerebral.

00:25:44: And we just thought like were trying to make it work and didn't work... ...and decided that was actually a big decision to change the whole quest with production.

00:25:53: It's always scary because will you manage this whole new thing in half of time?

00:25:59: We would normally have but we had to do otherwise you know, right impact.

00:26:09: and also I think the new story is just better.

00:26:11: And how do you convey it to the team?

00:26:14: i think like for sure we need to explain that because You're not making any rational decisions coming from summer.

00:26:27: so a better new vision, I guess.

00:26:32: So they're like oh okay this didn't work but this is actually cooler.

00:26:35: we still want to do this and of course invite them into the process as always as we mentioned recreate the diamond again.

00:26:43: so it's not.

00:26:44: hey now sometimes you have to do what Gabe mentioned.

00:26:48: But here where in space were provided maybe tighter boundaries team came up with like lots and lots of stuff in this

00:26:58: episode.

00:26:59: Like for example, I remember the team.

00:27:00: one of things that they came out with it didn't come necessarily from me or Igor.

00:27:04: I don't think either was um That you get beat up on that scene?

00:27:08: Yeah!

00:27:09: Remember when we just brought them to us?

00:27:11: oh that's so perfect.

00:27:13: yeah It just lands because its like cause your throughout whole game.

00:27:17: You're beating the shit at her.

00:27:19: We can edit

00:27:20: it just fine You know,

00:27:24: you're your wreck and shop.

00:27:27: And then when you don't have cyberware we need to show you what that means right?

00:27:30: Like two three people they can beat you up now.

00:27:34: Um, and I was like a perfect kind of touch to that thing that came from the team.

00:27:39: Not even for Maravka.

00:27:40: Don't remember who exactly someone on the team is

00:27:42: actually cool?

00:27:43: selling people idea but not only selling them on their idea in kind of let's do this as okay This Is The Idea.

00:27:52: Let's collaborate on it and let's add to it.

00:27:55: And instead of just like, but sometimes you said that some of us need to be kind of okay I have a clear vision what this should be?

00:28:00: Let's try to do it This

00:28:02: way.".

00:28:02: And then i feel there are these moments within the project where people say oh yeah!

00:28:08: This actually comes together nicely It works.

00:28:11: I'm happy that you mentioned iKamera because for reason is one those things People always go back to Journalists Go Back To community goes back to this, like one of those boss fights that became memorable because I feel the division and idea for it was there.

00:28:29: And they all just clicked together.

00:28:34: No, it was fun and Pavel Menechuk enjoyed every step of the way.

00:28:39: He's never worried or frustrated.

00:28:41: Never!

00:28:43: We're doing the tank I think like four times changing equipment different weapons

00:28:48: One of the most expensive artists

00:28:51: ever.

00:28:53: Yeah, that's the thing.

00:28:54: You can have this vision at the beginning but there needs to be a room.

00:28:57: always too change the path like sometimes you need to play something to decide if it is good or not and then roll with it.

00:29:04: Or do we design?

00:29:06: I was gonna ask one thing because We've seen kind of through the development of cyberpunk That There were A lot Of things that Were introduced into The game that felt Like It Was from Coming in From Like the community or like some would call it kind of fan service, but I don't like fanservice.

00:29:25: But going back to things that we envisioned for the game in the beginning so could you talk about also this?

00:29:32: Having the ability not let go and keep on a project and adding and making the product even better In the end?

00:29:43: So your talking about two point.

00:29:44: oh

00:29:45: yeah For me Before that, even I feel like edge runners update was yeah.

00:29:52: That was where we kind of started like pivoting or saying Like We can add more cool stuff?

00:29:57: We can do More stuff than the community wants and again really like Go ham on it.

00:30:03: Sure i mean Definitely.

00:30:06: at The beginning we had all kinds Of like serving and reports And data gathering but also there Was just intuition about what's missing And part of like kind of the stuff we're talking about with cinematic true story, We kinda were even applying it there and then in spirit so to speak.

00:30:23: With Like how do you make this world feel more

00:30:25: alive?

00:30:26: Um...and You can have these big ideas because The police system as It is now some Of This emergent content As It Is Right Now In Seventy-Seven If Your Rewind Back To One Point.

00:30:41: Oh One Point One on board to understand what it could be.

00:30:48: Um, and it was... It was challenging so but to answer your question like as far as community goes definitely that was a big mobilizer for the team just hearing like hey we want the world to feel more alive And So its Like.

00:31:00: okay how do We How Do We Do This?

00:31:04: Um, and there was a lot of you know engineers designers even narrative that were like oh we can't do That because it kind of goes against the traditional RPG stuff.

00:31:14: And it's like no.

00:31:14: There is a solution in The fact that they?

00:31:18: The fans the audience Was asking for.

00:31:21: It meant Like We got to.

00:31:23: we gotta figure out this off.

00:31:24: we Gotta Figure it Out.

00:31:25: and so that Is A huge Driver and I'm Naturally Optimistic Ironically working on the cyberpunk genre.

00:31:33: But like, so I'm like there is a solve here.

00:31:36: we can figure this out.

00:31:38: um yeah i don't know if that answers your question but that was-that was a huge part.

00:31:42: it

00:31:42: does.

00:31:43: how was it for you Igor?

00:31:44: Um...I think as let's say I work more on like main game development patches was mostly like Pavel Sasko and I think Gapes uh under GapES direction post-release stuff, it's a little bit more skewed towards like people's expectations or so features they've been missing.

00:32:05: You kind of try to build also on top what you have and I think its'a little but... More interesting with when your creating whole new game.

00:32:13: Like do you listen everything that people would want out of the new games?

00:32:16: Or are trying challenge them which again is this balance between art entertainment.

00:32:21: I really love working with Paweł Saszko on this because he's much more player-oriented, of sorts.

00:32:27: Players would laugh at him or appreciate it and so on... But should we maybe poke the bear a little bit?

00:32:38: really laugh about our company?

00:32:40: is that I think we never land on this like first, you know let's just make the players happy.

00:32:45: Let's give them what they want.

00:32:47: We always try to challenge them a little bit or go against their expectation and surprise them.

00:32:53: They are maybe thinking of DLC would be this or that?

00:32:57: with this end we're creating whole new story With different expression which yeah it was so much more interesting.

00:33:04: I always have to balance those guys out.

00:33:06: Yeah,

00:33:08: the referee as it were like listen there's a way

00:33:13: we

00:33:13: can have both.

00:33:14: they could happen and We put our put our minds together And i think we figured It out pretty well.

00:33:20: for two point oh um and The patch is following but certainly four.

00:33:25: two point Oh in one point five As you're saying?

00:33:27: Um and I Think all of it Is kind Of Rhythm And momentum for Cyberpunk.

00:33:35: two to go even farther and stronger, and.

00:33:39: Even more into what we want to deliver which is an immersive experience.

00:33:44: am I going too far?

00:33:45: Okay.

00:33:46: No Igor was kind of looking at you

00:33:49: like

00:33:52: I see that this dynamic whenever the both of your are talking one is trying to kinda look in through the other life bro maybe a little bit too much.

00:34:01: So when we're talking about this, let's kind of talk about the lessons learned from cyberpunk.

00:34:06: What are the things that you are taking with you and saying like all these Are The Things That For Sure We Want To Explore More Or Use In The Future?

00:34:17: Kind Of Like What Are The Lessons Learned From?

00:34:22: And the process as well, right?

00:34:26: Probably much easier to talk about.

00:34:27: The process rather than like specific features or aspects of the

00:34:30: game.

00:34:30: because yeah that's really tough to skirt that.

00:34:33: but um what process and team structure you can go first.

00:34:39: no I mean i'm happy too But I feel Like I keep

00:34:42: No worries.

00:34:43: Um sure.

00:34:44: um I think one Of our main takeaways from the base game in terms how we like produced it and organize It was one, we were creating like two far away plans for two specific things.

00:34:58: And in two and a half years this specific lighting effect will land exactly on display which is looking backwards.

00:35:04: it sounds ridiculous because games especially the size of complexity are so incredibly complex that you really cannot predict how.

00:35:14: there's like an emergent complexity from all the systems and people interacting, bringing their ideas.

00:35:21: All of this working in life environment versus technology.

00:35:26: you just cannot predict where stuff will be.

00:35:28: that is why we switched to agile methodology which much more like shorter term planning.

00:35:36: I don't want to say it's only this, but overall in detail you focus on the sprints.

00:35:40: so two-three weeks or a milestone with slightly lesser details And then you have a roadmap for like, year ahead and kind of a goal.

00:35:51: Yeah

00:35:52: in the stage which we introduced also on the Phantom Liberty a bit right?

00:35:55: So before in cyber pangos were playing whole game under their beginning.

00:35:58: so at the begining thought that exactly know with what will land seven years ago...

00:36:03: Exactly!

00:36:04: This is kinda to our previous point about leaving space or discovering.

00:36:08: and with agile it's much better because your agile and figuring out as you go but still keeping in mind the overall vision and goal for the product.

00:36:19: So one thing is over where we approach playing, testing and iterating on-the game.

00:36:26: And a second big aspect.

00:36:27: I think it's just crossing communication which something that hurt us a little bit.

00:36:32: i think.

00:36:32: on base cyberpunk were mostly most of teams or areas doing their own things.

00:36:37: We had less points of contact created some discrepancy between like features and narrative or just times of delivery, different stuff.

00:36:46: Now we completely switch our method.

00:36:49: you don't work really in disciplines.

00:36:51: You're working only on player-oriented posts which create a player experience oriented post Which creates player experiences.

00:36:58: but to create player experiences you need little bit everyone Someone from art From audio From gameplay From narratives And they always go totally hand-in-hand talking to each other all the time.

00:37:11: And that's an enormous change and I think it served us really well.

00:37:15: on Funtime Liberty, we would like to stick with.

00:37:18: overall constant communication is just absolute life system of game development without everything falls apart immediately especially for our complexity because sure... It can work on like small, you know project really tight.

00:37:35: Everyone knows exactly what to do.

00:37:36: You can plan it in a waterfall method is easy but not with the game like ours.

00:37:42: and To um Like to be clear we do a hybrid.

00:37:46: We do a hybrid?

00:37:47: It's not full agile there's a hybrid element to it.

00:37:50: Um

00:37:52: I remember when i was first in game development uh having to work on.

00:37:58: i was writing quests And I was writing quests with assumptions of environment art.

00:38:04: And I was just like, why are we doing?

00:38:07: Why am I doing this?

00:38:08: and I'm like, I know where the environment artist sits.

00:38:11: And so I just went over in it.

00:38:14: You know, um, uh, I've been doing this for twenty two years now.

00:38:17: So I'm talking a long time ago right?

00:38:19: I'm Like let me go to chat with the environment artists and then chat with them.

00:38:24: We collaborated on something and then it was like oh my God!

00:38:27: This is sort patting myself on the back here.

00:38:31: This is like, The Best Quest!

00:38:32: Wow how'd you guys do that?

00:38:34: And again this way back when just getting off of like the nineties game making garage starting to expand into bigger stuff in early two thousands.

00:38:45: and it was this whole thing where industry trying figure out How Do We Scale And then a lot of people came in with like, oh Agile.

00:38:52: Agile and it was like okay agile cool there's elements to it.

00:38:56: but how do you do both?

00:38:57: because You can't just be fully agile cuz you can have these individual groups making different games at this scale.

00:39:03: It's fine when it's like a smaller one.

00:39:04: But How do you?

00:39:05: Do that and I think A big part Of it is Is Like what we were talking about earlier.

00:39:09: its That vision alignment cascading and letting People Be product owners.

00:39:13: But you know that a Product Owner on an Individual Cross-Discipline Quest Team Understands the place of this product in the overall project because they've aligned heavily with Igor, who's aligned heavily.

00:39:25: With me and The other guys And This is an important aspect to I guess i just wanted To caveat that Because it's not all rose colored glasses.

00:39:35: It's Not like everyone.

00:39:36: Just do what you want.

00:39:37: because early when we first cause When I took over on On seventy seven We were doing the transformation Which was talked about In the median stuff Early on everyone was like when we put these teams together.

00:39:51: We had, you know level designers being like okay I get to write now and writers be like oh hey i got To do gameplay.

00:39:57: Now it's about collaborating It's not About doing You still respect each other's disciplines But its just having that conversation Similar to the example because it resonated quite with me On how I started in industry Because that's basically it.

00:40:18: And that was missing in Waterfall, you know classical classically people just don't talk to each other and if your not a game development its probably difficult picture of that.

00:40:28: because like why wouldn't you?

00:40:30: There is something in the air sometimes at companies where they are doing their task which we try change culturally this great segue into our Boston studio.

00:40:43: Yeah, it's like you're reading my mind because this is the next thing that I was going to move into.

00:40:49: But yeah...I wonder here!

00:40:50: Because i remember switching Fountain Liberty right?

00:40:52: So in Cyberpunk we've been totally siloed.

00:40:55: so teams were working waterfall and their bubbles like art here, narrative here etc.

00:41:00: And making all those people work together communicate more, spending more time on communication than actually doing their task and work.

00:41:07: And also being aware of what the full picture is.

00:41:10: because you know let's be honest many people in the company just were just focusing on their disciplines.

00:41:13: they're model there are things or quest but they're not really aware Of how the whole game shapes together.

00:41:19: so it was a difficult process for our People internally here.

00:41:23: now we are building new studio.

00:41:25: We know that your team has grown twice over a year right?

00:41:28: Yeah So uh... But on the other hand You're building it in states.

00:41:31: There are people which have, for example longer experience in the game.

00:41:34: The game development is all there right?

00:41:37: So how this?

00:41:39: you know our culture of working or methodology that we figure out in Fountain Liberty lands their with those people.

00:41:46: so it's interesting because like what What You're saying There Is Like We Doubled In Size Over This Last Year and And The Marketplace In The States.

00:41:59: You have all kinds of development companies and you've got some like, let's say old school buyer wear naughty dog obsidian.

00:42:12: It's heavy iterative cultures right?

00:42:16: Heavy collaboration cultures.

00:42:17: And then you have somewhere I'm not going to point a finger at any but it is more just here the blueprint.

00:42:26: And some of the individuals that come from, well here's a blueprint.

00:42:32: you do it are super experts.

00:42:34: They're so damn good at this thing but they're used to getting specific instructions and what we create is art that we discover and everyone contributes too.

00:42:45: So... To answer your question how is it?

00:42:48: It like fifty-fifty You know I'd say its more like seventy thirty, seventy percent people coming from iterative Culture backgrounds, but thirty percent not.

00:42:57: and we have to be like hey listen Like.

00:42:59: I'm asking you to change this.

00:43:01: Not because you didn't do a great job.

00:43:03: That's a phenomenal job.

00:43:04: It just doesn't quite fit.

00:43:06: or Because you did that.

00:43:08: We now see the next step And now we have a better picture of what we want?

00:43:13: So This is very valuable part Of the process that You Just contributed To.

00:43:19: But yes get rid of it and put something else in its place.

00:43:23: And getting everyone to feel comfortable, safe emotionally with that... We talk among leadership to be very conscious about this.

00:43:32: we have various different HR driven training programs where I try remind every one.

00:43:42: iteration doesn't mean you did a bad job

00:43:46: at least to me, one of the most important points is this yeah safety of sorts like emotional safety where you are kind that ties to what we've been discussing before.

00:43:57: If you want it not be just entertainment.

00:44:00: people going for their very first idea they have there's a safe idea The idea They know which isn't really not brave and its' not going out.

00:44:08: but You Know It will work.

00:44:09: But in the end Its not interesting Like an interesting thing out there, right?

00:44:16: Like to reach deeper into themselves and like surface this idea.

00:44:19: Maybe they had some difficult experience but in order to just share it with people around you... You need to know them!

00:44:25: You need feel safe with them!

00:44:27: If you propose an idea that doesn't work no one will criticize your for it.

00:44:33: But as Gabe said thank-you I don't think these works.

00:44:37: Let's keep exploring.

00:44:39: In the end i think we can build this time and practice, showing up being there.

00:44:46: Engaging in those discussions and showing yourself that you're this type of leader or director that encourages people to promote these ideas.

00:44:56: so sure we can say all the nice team vision statements.

00:45:02: but at the end it's just months and hundreds hours talking and practicing getting to know them And then, I think the really good stuff starts to appear in this space.

00:45:39: But maybe my idea sucks.

00:45:41: challenge me.

00:45:42: I'm like, and then?

00:45:43: And then I start and then I started arguing against my idea.

00:45:46: And I remember Igor was like wait so do you want to do it or not?

00:45:50: No no, I just want to challenge it because like My ideas all of our ideas are like.

00:45:56: I want to minimize that the power dynamic as a word because it's like its ideas.

00:46:01: Ideas need to be defensible right an ideas you need to make, they're not personal.

00:46:07: They just contribute contributions to the process and it's like beat up the ideas.

00:46:13: You know beating of the person.

00:46:14: your being at the idea And that is what we needed do in.

00:46:17: everyone needs to feel comfortable with try too.

00:46:19: I think challenging things are super important.

00:46:21: What i always liked about us as a company Is That We're Not Afraid To Kind Of Itterate and iterate and iterate to a point where confident in that idea, and we're happy with it.

00:46:33: And maybe this is not something you envisioned at the beginning but... At the end?

00:46:37: It's like oh!

00:46:38: This really cool But must be also difficult especially when talking about a market where game development has been present for longer periods of time than Europe.

00:46:49: We do things here little bit differently.

00:46:51: So taking culture translating into that market there are lots people like a lot of experience and big egos.

00:46:59: And, Like you said I really liked the approach.

00:47:02: it's not that idea is bad but let's say Let's try to make it better!

00:47:06: Let's reiterate or change it push yourself in this direction a little bit more.

00:47:12: That's where the secret sauce is made, right?

00:47:14: And I feel like very CDPR

00:47:17: first best idea wins and on fun to liberty.

00:47:21: we had a bunch of great ideas coming from all around kind.

00:47:25: that also gives me a point.

00:47:26: you need to know our feedback as a gift so you can receive it but don't have later.

00:47:32: take something with us.

00:47:34: Thank you, in the end it's your like disciplines expertise to decide if something works or not.

00:47:40: But yeah... In the end anyone has a better idea?

00:47:43: Like sure we will use this idea and also I think part about CDPR which is both very demanding but also something that i love.

00:47:52: If its'nt good enough We just won't do it And we'll keep doing things internet iterating until they're good And there's no way around it.

00:48:00: Like, There is literally No Way Around

00:48:01: It.

00:48:02: so... Yeah yeah.

00:48:03: There are times where its like oh we got to stick with this To finish it and then We just say I don't care If Its not the right thing..its like The ending you talked about.

00:48:13: It was like The Ending isn't Right!

00:48:15: We have to change it.

00:48:17: It doesn't matter because were Not going to put out..we Don't want to Put Out Anything Were Not Proud of.

00:48:22: But thats another Thing like presenting a better idea.

00:48:25: Sometimes people might be You know they might think their idea is not better, but it's also not easy for me and I wanted to make people share the stupid ideas.

00:48:38: Because sometimes you know just... They need to be feeling very comfortable and safe at a place where we can start sharing even these stupid ideas that.. You know?

00:48:47: Just say them!

00:48:48: Very often those ideas in the brainstorms The quantity of those ideas Some are bad some were horrible etc.

00:48:55: But there're no afraid to say or debate about them.

00:48:58: even the worst idea can spark another person to invent something which will be actually completely groundbreaking.

00:49:05: And I've witnessed that multiple times, and this is a challenge with the team making this comfortable environment for them...to be there.

00:49:15: You know probably dumb idea but what if we do

00:49:18: this?

00:49:21: It's an exercise!

00:49:22: To find out what aspects of this dumb idea are good.

00:49:26: The overall idea doesn't work, but what aspects have some quality to it?

00:49:31: that then translates into something in the air.

00:49:36: But you need a culture and environment for it.

00:49:38: So people feel comfortable enough because sometimes we, we are professionals so we kind of our always thinking like okay I used to come up with the best idea needs to be bulletproofed

00:49:46: say some

00:49:47: smart not exactly something smart but then if your comfortable enough And sometimes he can throw something which is kinda like yeah loose idea probably You know i'll just throw on wall probably bounce off nothing.

00:50:00: What if we do this?

00:50:02: And what would be iterated and change it to, then someone gets inspired by that.

00:50:06: But you have this like culture within the company That lets people throw these ideas.

00:50:10: It makes them feel comfortable To throw crazy ideas.

00:50:13: Maybe they won't stick.

00:50:14: maybe They will.

00:50:16: You know, they are empowered to have that which I think is super important.

00:50:20: It's

00:50:21: not a company where we do all this HR notes.

00:50:23: This guy had his stupid idea or something like that.

00:50:26: Yeah yeah!

00:50:26: Where did he like the ideas?

00:50:27: Not what you'd expect from us.

00:50:28: One thing

00:50:28: one thing i want to add here because I always liked to ground this in practicality Because lot of people talk about lofty things and perfect places And stuff Like That.

00:50:38: There Is Certain Phases In The Project Or Even In Sprints And In Milestones.

00:50:45: Okay, there's a lot of good ideas.

00:50:48: There was a lot things here or you know but we just have to make it decision.

00:50:52: We got to close on and whether its product owner or director It is like closing right?

00:50:58: That is absolutely phase of it And sometimes Sometimes their subjectivity Right!

00:51:04: Sometimes theres intuition.

00:51:11: Yeah, it's like the ideas.

00:51:12: The process contributing getting as far as you can but It doesn't mean that all ideas get done.

00:51:18: and I think that important thing

00:51:19: is also coming back to this up to the gdf in the phases And diamond you described right.

00:51:24: so we have this vision.

00:51:25: Right then?

00:51:26: We have a concept the preproduction urine right now.

00:51:28: right those are the moments when we kind of too many ideas right.

00:51:31: and Then let me go into production.

00:51:33: We're narrowing down or framing it right there.

00:51:35: great We can either for it or they don't fit.

00:51:38: Or, you know...

00:51:38: Maybe for the expansion?

00:51:39: Exactly!

00:51:40: Maybe another

00:51:40: game?!

00:51:42: There's this and I'm not going to say what is but there was rolling thing that has been around a while that Igor always brings up And i am like It doesn't fit.

00:51:52: You know what im talking about right?

00:51:54: That's for later.

00:51:57: On the next project, I

00:52:02: keep them as hope alive.

00:52:04: so actually it makes a one day

00:52:05: motivating for me.

00:52:08: this is the carrot.

00:52:11: yeah just keep going.

00:52:13: awesome guys.

00:52:13: um This was uh super interesting conversation.

00:52:17: i think we We managed to kind of avoid spoilers but We'll see what the audience thinks.

00:52:28: If there is like one thing that you wanted to kind of wrap everything up in terms of, thinking about Boston and thinkin' about uh...the future And kinda teams that your building and project they are working on.

00:52:41: What's this?

00:52:42: One thing most looking for when it comes to the future Kind also something can give the viewers or people who are thinking about joining us in our Boston studio to kind of think about.

00:52:55: So if you could throw one thing, it's totally open.

00:53:00: The thing I'm most looking forward too In the future is um Is i mean cyberpunk two and seeing the piece Of art that comes from?

00:53:11: The chemistry of the whole team like creating creating a piece of art bringing It out there to the players And kind of making, you know contributing to people's lives in a way of like showing different perspectives but also having some fun and some immersion.

00:53:34: I think this is...I mean again i'm trying not give spoilers But putting that out there was definitely the thing.

00:53:49: Building a team is also building the game.

00:53:52: And so it's the whole thing, its'the whole piece and being like oh look we built this team... ...and here is the reflection of that team.. ..and everyone's contributions

00:54:02: beautiful

00:54:05: I would almost say the same things.

00:54:07: i'm really looking forward to this collaborative creative process where every one as we talk feels safe brave ideas and it's a thing, like the game is a thing that has an edge.

00:54:20: Has an expression as going to new places, taking risks in their product but safe on the team that's creating them.

00:54:29: Yeah, I was thinking you're gonna take it more in the arts direction because i know your very like when comes to expression and kind of creative process.

00:54:36: You are a person that we can have lengthy conversations about this.

00:54:39: I always kinda think like yeah artistic expressions stuff...I was fishing for little bit on that.

00:54:45: so.. I'm

00:54:45: trying manage with my product responsibility to my internal Pavel Sasko telling me make accessible as well.

00:54:55: Guys, awesome!

00:54:56: Thank you for this conversation.

00:54:57: It was super insightful and yeah hopefully we can have you here once again Once we start talking

00:55:03: more about

00:55:03: the future.

00:55:05: I

00:55:05: can't wait.

00:55:06: Thank-you

00:55:06: so much.

00:55:07: Alright it's fun.

00:55:08: Thanks

00:55:09: All right.

00:55:10: thank You very much For joining in.

00:55:11: i hope you enjoyed.

00:55:12: The episode is a Very Insightful journey through how We think the game should be made.

00:55:18: How what?

00:55:18: What do we feel About Cyberpunk twenty seven Seven And how we altered the way do games, we approach doing games in Phantom Liberty and how finally how we transplanted that knowledge into our newly established North American

00:55:44: studio.