#030: Paths and Possibilities: The Art of Level Design

00:00:01: Hello, welcome to the answer.

00:00:01: podcast.

00:00:02: My name is Paweł Buża and as always I am joined by Pawel Mielniczuk, the art director for Project Hater!

00:00:07: Hey everyone today we'll dive deep into level design here at the project reds And our guests will be Miles Tost lead level designer and Marta Dobinska senior level designer both from The Witcher four.

00:00:18: It has been a super interesting conversation.

00:00:20: We covered everything from The witcher's three two cyberpunk and phantom liberty and we talked about designing

00:00:26: levels.

00:00:27: so Without further ado, let's meet our guests.

00:00:32: All right Marta Miles.

00:00:34: welcome to the podcast.

00:00:35: officially.

00:00:37: Could you for those listening?

00:00:39: To the podcast could say your name and your position here at red?

00:00:42: Yes I'm miles toast And i am level design lead on Witcher four.

00:00:46: I've practiced this a few times in front of the mirror.

00:00:52: It is like big words!

00:00:53: And uh...I have been with the company since two thousand thirteen starting on Witcher three.

00:00:59: Perfect

00:01:00: Yeah, and I'm Marta DeWinska.

00:01:01: I am a senior level designer.

00:01:03: I joined CD Projekt Red five years ago And i'm happy to join you today.

00:01:07: Awesome!

00:01:08: Thank You for being here.

00:01:09: Welcome to the podcast.

00:01:10: Okay, so let's start from the origin of the level design team.

00:01:13: So as far I remember back in times In The Times Of Witcher II ,the Level Design was not a thing in the CD Projekt Red.

00:01:20: The responsibilities for that team were handled by Quest designers and environment artists And then it became a thing.

00:01:28: What is moment when the Level Design Team Was formed?

00:01:30: And their roles and the responsibilities of That team Were defined.

00:01:35: Yeah, that was interesting because I'm like a kind of joke That i was the first level designer to join The company.

00:01:40: but the truth is our dear colleague Adam Rotec Was number one and uh.

00:01:45: Have To say this also Because um his onboarding for me sort Of training it was Like really great.

00:01:52: so It's like very welcoming.

00:01:53: Um yeah But when I started we were basically just the two of Us And the fun thing Is There was no clue what to do with it.

00:02:03: It's pretty much like I started out as an intern, and remember the first task?

00:02:08: I literally got on a day Was yeah we have black box right And can you just plan in the world.

00:02:16: he was our internal tool With a map.

00:02:19: yes We were supposed set up pointers where the quest elements and interesting things On them app will happen In The future when the map would be crazy

00:02:26: switcher two times.

00:02:27: It was Witcher three,

00:02:28: which is

00:02:29: kind

00:02:29: of like

00:02:30: her.

00:02:30: Like the easiest comparison would be to talk about internal Google Maps right?

00:02:35: So you had these markers and he can open them and have a description with reference pictures or what this could look like.

00:02:41: so intern miles were set there basically looking at I think it was art-skeletal And they're going.

00:02:48: hey all

00:02:49: right i guess There's a forest here.

00:02:51: maybe just started doing these markers You'd be shocked Impressed, surprised all of these by how much off that actually made it into the final game.

00:03:03: Right?

00:03:03: And um... The thing- How the discipline sort developed is that Witcher three was very much a project in which we were trying to figure out how to make level design function In this studio and A lot of the stuff that I was doing was very sort of like Back then we had the locations team, right?

00:03:26: So it was environment artists who were working on locations and in that We're also the two level designers.

00:03:32: And we are basically doing identical work for a lot of their project.

00:03:36: Level art I guess is the term you would use today.

00:03:41: You know more-and-more.

00:03:42: The farther we got into projects though we wouldn't be doing things such as planning the world.

00:03:46: Right Later we have other people joined with whom he basically did much more earnest approach at saying okay POIs, density.

00:03:55: You know all of these sort of topics of defining how the world actually looks and plays like.

00:04:01: And then at the end I think which is we were kind of five or so level designers.

00:04:08: We really revamped that process for the expansions where try to Think about dungeons also more in a design kinda way For cyberpunk.

00:04:21: I think this was really the moment in the studio where it was break food for level designers because the complexity of gameplay went up so dramatically, right?

00:04:29: Geralt can walk around do like a sword and fire trick.

00:04:33: His big achievement at Witcher three was jumping which wasn't not lot room to level designers to redo.

00:04:40: compelling you know engaging locations much but Cyberpunk palette abilities skills that he could And the ambitions, sandbox gameplay really changed everything and also made the discipline much more necessary.

00:04:59: Nowadays I would say we've really established ourselves as a sort of force in this studio that covers a wide ground of responsibilities.

00:05:09: So Marta so right now what are the main goals for the level design team?

00:05:13: What do you want to achieve?

00:05:17: Well, the answer will be quite long.

00:05:21: In a picture!

00:05:23: I'd say that level designer role is quite broad and simplest way to describe level designers would be to say they are architects of game locations.

00:05:33: but there's more than that.

00:05:34: it's about shaping the space that players move around in doing it in ways where they know how to go so probably... guided.

00:05:44: It's also about directing players' experience gameplay-wise, right?

00:05:49: So all the obstacles and challenges that we put in front of players control the flow of exploration, pacing coffee plants etc.

00:05:58: Apart from this we set a stage for all narrative elements... For the biggest impact!

00:06:05: And finally, we prepare this space in a way that all game systems or gameplay features they work as intended and actually with the best effect.

00:06:16: So you could say level designers are kind of in the middle Of any content That is anyhow spatially located somewhere Right?

00:06:24: We prepared these canvas where all game elements need to come together To create this final cohesive experience.

00:06:34: And if level design is done well, then it actually elevates those elements.

00:06:39: so It's more than the sum of its

00:06:41: parts.

00:06:41: Yeah because normally what I when i first I think discovered Level Design was a kid?

00:06:46: I had NES at play Super Mario Brothers and there was an underground level.

00:06:50: There was lava level!

00:06:52: And in later games you have like water-level You know things... This was basic level design right But now we think about How games are made now and also how we make games.

00:07:02: They're big, like I said some sound box open games And there's multiple things that kind of go into it.

00:07:07: There is environmental design, game play design, narrative part and level design Which for me takes all these things and puts them altogether, glues them together Because as a player once you move in the traversing world You have story title which was super important to us where that player should be going and in order for the experience to be like really cool, right?

00:07:36: So I feel like correct me if i'm wrong but it's kind of like gluing all these parts together having the narrative.

00:07:42: Kind Of The Golden Path Be There But also If A Player Wants To Maybe Not Do The Golden path Go To The Side.

00:07:50: there is still something Interesting There That Can't Be Placed In The Specific spot in order to, for the player still have that cool engagement with the game.

00:08:01: And then I don't know sometimes within environment you just go to a spot and your like.

00:08:05: wow this is so well designed.

00:08:08: even though it's not the main part or the main quest its still super interesting.

00:08:12: So can we talk about having the players freedom there kind of in level design?

00:08:20: Because some times we think Level Design

00:08:22: Well

00:08:23: That's kind of like the Mario thing.

00:08:24: Like you're supposed to jump here, then jump there, jump here and this is the path that we are suppose go.

00:08:29: And sometimes You want in a game?

00:08:31: You wanna direct player just straight into corridor.

00:08:35: but I feel with now how games made... You kinda wanna be open it up so players have full agency can do whatever he or she wants.

00:08:43: Yeah thats probably one of most important day-to-day challenges.

00:08:50: our discipline faces interplay between providing agency to the player, but also directing a narrative experience.

00:09:01: Right?

00:09:01: Because we had read... We do both of these things where we try to marry this and it can be quite complex right?

00:09:09: The reality is that in practice um ...we never do just one thing.

00:09:15: yeah so we will have moments in gameplay that will be much more open and freeform Or, and we will have moments that need to be a bit more controlled in linear because they drive an important narrative theme or literally just point.

00:09:33: Yeah?

00:09:33: Um I do think though that as we have gotten more experience over the years as our capabilities sort of grow um That were looking at sort merging these spaces, right?

00:09:48: So like the question we constantly keep asking ourselves you know whether it's a Witcher three cyberpunk found liberty or even our future project is this question of Like how can we provide maximum agency while also telling good story.

00:10:05: Right and I think The cool thing for us in the interesting thing for Us no matter which Project We look at Is that Making RPGs often time the most interesting parts happens in The Convergence, right?

00:10:21: Where these places where you can think of?

00:10:23: okay But what if the player decides to do something entirely different there?

00:10:26: how does the game react To that.

00:10:28: Right Do we need to answer it by level design which can either be limiting the space or opening it up, right?

00:10:34: Encouraging this behavior.

00:10:36: Or do we answer through another discipline like Quest Design who can basically... Hey!

00:10:41: The NPC will mention that you did this thing.

00:10:43: so This is really cool stuff but also super difficult

00:10:51: I would say.

00:10:52: ideally because of what medium games are We'd like to provide as much agency for players as possible.

00:11:02: certain aspects to that, right?

00:11:04: Once are actually production-wise.

00:11:06: So providing more options securing all the things that players can do comes at a certain cost.

00:11:14: on the production side we need to kind of prepare it or we have some game systems that can secure it properly.

00:11:22: so usually the question is Do We Really Need It in every part of the game.

00:11:29: There are some beats where it fits really well and we want to go out with them, right?

00:11:34: And provide sandbox opportunities that make players feel they have a library or things you can choose from but also on smaller scale.

00:11:44: It provides fewer meaningful options for smaller beats so players would still feel like there is an option.

00:11:54: I think matter drives some really, really important points and takeaways we've been having over also the recent years.

00:12:00: Right?

00:12:00: That first off.

00:12:01: The reality in a game making process is that you need to take into account the cost of this right.

00:12:07: just freedom for their sake or freedom And just kind of answering to every eventuality can be quite costly because We need to require all these dialogues and whatnot.

00:12:16: like it can scale crazily.

00:12:20: The other thing that you mentioned, I think is super important though.

00:12:23: Is this angle of will the player remember it?

00:12:27: Right so we do love to have these details That um You know only a fraction of players will find and then for those It's gonna be the best experience ever.

00:12:38: But that's the point right.

00:12:39: make sure when people Do find i don't Know the team picture stuff with johnny and sara punk or whatever.

00:12:48: Then it's something that sticks with them and they want to talk about in all that stuff, right?

00:12:52: The worst case scenario would be investing a lot of energy and time into some niche consequence essentially.

00:13:00: That is forgettable!

00:13:02: I wonder if there's golden rule for that.

00:13:04: because we have this narrative branching For example, late-stake front on liberty as an example spoiler alert at the large airport or in underground bunker down to game.

00:13:14: So there's a content completely, like part of players who completely miss in single playthrough.

00:13:19: and then on level design you're creating multiple paths and agendas for player on a single level.

00:13:24: so is it some rule-of-temp?

00:13:26: how much is enough?

00:13:27: You know because they are some exclusive contents put their some paths that players will never see over one play through.

00:13:35: what was not enough

00:13:39: I think that, and Miles can say more in a moment because he actually worked on one of those branches.

00:13:46: But I would say we look for places where our efforts and the budget put into it will make the biggest impact.

00:13:55: And our games in CDPR they are story-driven game very much about character development right?

00:14:01: Those characters which kind Let's say destiny, what will happen to them was decided in this exact moment.

00:14:09: And the resolution is actually quite meaningful big that those were like the whole levels right?

00:14:15: That would show What Would Happen if you choose one of the branches.

00:14:18: I think that This Actually A Great Example Of The Impact That This Would Have On The Story.

00:14:23: Right.

00:14:24: Players Would Actually Experience different endings, uh...different results on many levels actually of their choices.

00:14:31: Right?

00:14:32: On many levels including narration level design gameplay.

00:14:35: The replayability potential for a game but also this kind of players feeling that they're crafting the experience Yeah

00:14:42: yeah I think when we talk about golden rules right and try to establish something there For me over the years what i've sort have been you know reflecting on is it's probably not so much the actual choice and consequence itself.

00:14:58: And, you know... The end result of it but rather more that player understands there is a choice they need to make and has an impact right?

00:15:10: It's something I think we try really address not just on level design side but globally between Cyberpunk and Phantom Liberty.

00:15:19: if we make, you know choice and consequence be too much to smooth sort of too subtle in this process that.

00:15:26: You don't really notice when you've made a choice but the game just kind of plays out very differently.

00:15:31: then The players will perceive it as a linear experience which is not what We want to do.

00:15:37: also literally now What?

00:15:38: We prepared right.

00:15:39: so And I think we see this very well in Phantom Liberty at that big inflection point where's basically here?

00:15:47: It's a choice you need to make this and it will is impactful.

00:15:52: And, uh, You know when you then hear people talk about that they have these experience of like two different experiences and it's not different in level design really right?

00:16:01: That um When the player makes a choice do I go left or Right Do i shoot The guy Or do i sneak by them right that This needs To be Telegraphed to the Player that They are Making A Choice And this will have a consequence and only then is it really of value, right?

00:16:18: Otherwise how do you know.

00:16:20: Yeah yeah where would just say A level designer kind in the project like thrives Where's the spot between like The environment designer, the quest designer?

00:16:34: Does that also change depending on the phase Of the product?

00:16:36: It was pre-production to production.

00:16:40: Talk about your placement within.

00:16:45: I think that's the question.

00:16:46: That first off, as you already implied it changes between action phases but also a change is between individuals.

00:16:52: right because so in which or four level design team we address a wide set of responsibilities Right?

00:16:59: We're dealing with world-designed topics like How does the world look like?

00:17:05: We're getting back to where our forests part from way earlier.

00:17:09: Um, we're dealing with encounter designs or anything that deals with enemies puzzles and all of that.

00:17:16: And then the other thing is that were building locations levels as you would imagine right.

00:17:22: so your dungeon People have different sort of preferences, right?

00:17:29: Some some over our team members.

00:17:31: They're stronger on the mechanical parts that they really like working with gameplay systems.

00:17:35: So most likely when they thrive and I get to build strong cool encounters, right other people are maybe perhaps more artistically inclined.

00:17:45: so That's where I kind of consider myself as also write like.

00:17:49: so they really liked building locations And so i think This is a cool superpower of our team that we allow for these different focuses also, right?

00:17:59: We demand that everyone knows everything but they can more or less specialize and excel in certain areas.

00:18:06: And I think this something not many studios do specifically with the level design discipline because there their direction seems to be rather specialization

00:18:21: And because you said also the other architects, especially laying out all these elements and there's like a lot of clients around I guess.

00:18:29: There is quest design they have some kind... There are narrative requirements.

00:18:33: There're some puzzles to put.

00:18:35: There was gameplay that requires something from here.

00:18:39: Yeah

00:18:40: artists want something beautiful standing in the middle level You know, because concept art did something and our director likes it etc.

00:18:48: So there's multiple disinterest people influencing the work And you are the ones at the beginning that need to figure out all the requirements and kind of make everyone happy.

00:18:56: I guess

00:18:57: yeah i mean i think That is one of The biggest challenges.

00:19:00: actually uh that Is kind Of related To our role too?

00:19:06: But At the same time It's so rooted in what we need to be there, that it's... It comes natural.

00:19:14: And I think this is something actually as level designers really kind of love to do.

00:19:20: but overall though this collaboration on those three fronts let say mostly gameplay art and quest design.

00:19:28: It differs a bit, of course but it's all about at the end this final experience that we want to achieve.

00:19:34: so it also varies between different kinds of projects.

00:19:38: So its very specific.

00:19:41: in our company with games like we do For example narration is Very important, if not the most important part in our game.

00:19:51: So everything revolves around that and we think starts with quest design.

00:19:55: it's like a foundation for us.

00:19:56: It sets up frames that we start to work With even determines how every day worked I'd say because even other production teams are kind of built Around certain narrative content pieces right?

00:20:10: And We work closely with Quest Design too.

00:20:14: bring the vision, the story that they want to convey through gameplay.

00:20:20: It's often a bit wider perspective.

00:20:23: it is about what flow we should create and what pacing... What target emotion do we want to evoke in players?

00:20:30: And what fantasy would you like to create actually?

00:20:34: To achieve this goal we need to cooperate with game play teams because we work with them on this moment-to-moment experience, right?

00:20:41: So these interaction moments choices that players make.

00:20:46: It's also very important.

00:20:48: and the last thing art is actually a very interesting environment art specifically department because we kind of share this area of focus.

00:20:58: We both worked on locations so it's only natural That our work is intertwined from the beginning.

00:21:08: Yeah, so it's actually about navigating this environment.

00:21:11: Because the location is where everything meets right?

00:21:14: And okay and you touch on this cooperation with environmental does sometimes happen that there are some conflicting ideas within level because I guess like when the level design ends and whether the environment art starts.

00:21:31: Yeah, when does that happen Mata?

00:21:37: This is an interesting question because I think there's no obvious answer.

00:21:42: you know, draw and yeah this is where level design ends.

00:21:45: This is where environment art starts And it actually also depends on what kind of game worlds we are creating.

00:21:52: for example in Witcher Where the world's very organic We venture much further into environmental territory because we need to prepare a bit more sometimes More details to properly show that, yes this location will fit in the world.

00:22:08: This is the fantasy we are going for and everything sometimes needs a bit more detail into it.

00:22:13: It automatically becomes a little more artistic than in comparison with Cyberpunk which is based much on modularity.

00:22:22: so you can work with simpler shapes.

00:22:28: but about line at end of day I think Line is actually kind of drawn by production, right?

00:22:37: We have certain pipelines and at some point we need to pass this location over for environment paths.

00:22:46: Apart from that, it's like a constant discussion.

00:22:48: Right?

00:22:49: And

00:22:49: probably also a lot of iteration in between changing things playing at seeing if I feel right or what about If i do this.

00:22:55: What About If I Do This?

00:22:56: Like Probably A Big Collaboration?

00:22:58: This

00:22:58: is the big part because you have to do It Because There Are So Many Interests.

00:23:03: Sometimes You Push Too Far In One Direction Then You Lose The Interest Of Some Other And You To Catch It Reintegrate It.

00:23:13: This whole environment art and LD thing is I think an industry eternal conflict, right?

00:23:19: You hear a lot of jokes are being done about this.

00:23:23: We've gotten pretty good at sort of managing this And i'd like to think we have really good relationship with the our teams that we work With.

00:23:31: Part Of That Is Because We Just Vibe Along A Bit Of This Sort Of Historic

00:23:37: Yeah.

00:23:39: Creation of the LD team kind of plays into that because there was very close collaboration by design, but also what we started to do much more especially with our new projects is say hey how can work better for art teams?

00:24:00: Because they are incredible and I maintain you know anyone who asks me if really, we could just let them lose completely.

00:24:11: They would probably create and they are actually right?

00:24:16: If you look at Starbucks great some of the most beautiful game worlds that the industry has seen.

00:24:23: And this is something that from my perspective, we always try to support right because he understanding us.

00:24:29: if we can strengthen that then our game will be better and so were constantly seeing ourselves as people who tried to enable That process.

00:24:39: but The reality also games need To Be playable Right?

00:24:42: So you Can make the most beautiful space But If You Constantly Get Stuck Moving Around All That Decoration It Doesn't Really Work.

00:24:50: And so what we've started doing as level designers is to apply a much more artistic approach on our teams, right?

00:24:59: We took this on us and said hey look maybe we can soften sort of that pressure a bit.

00:25:06: And align more early.

00:25:07: if we make blockouts that already use compositional elements where you look at them it's not just box for room or something happening here but It's a spaceport, right?

00:25:22: And oh this is where the check-in happens and whatnot.

00:25:25: You can tell from the block out the context of it... ...and doesn't just fulfill that function but also looks artistically promising!

00:25:35: Yes, it is more work.

00:25:36: But what happens is the conversation with your artists gets entirely transformed right?

00:25:41: You don't start talking about... What's that?

00:25:45: and I don't know how do you turn this into something like a shared brainstorming session of oh!

00:25:49: This is cool.

00:25:50: we could also do all these things And i think this really key to any collaboration specifically but as level design but perhaps generally That figure out What are the intentions?

00:26:04: The needs, the goals.

00:26:05: what's the language that other team is speaking and how can you not only speak and adapt to that but also offer something to elevate it.

00:26:15: And thats really how we're looking at level design at red.

00:26:19: Really cool.

00:26:19: If you have like talk about um Level designers here versus kind of in industry do We Do Something differently at CDPR when It Comes To Having Like people who are just specialized in level design, because sometimes I feel like a level designer is can be also someone who works and.

00:26:39: A different team if it's like environment designer of his gameplay designed what we kind have our own dedicated him that has just for level designs dislike standard moving forward.

00:26:48: maybe or isn't something that this kind of like a fluid type position than some one could have within the development team

00:26:56: something I've been talking to a lot with other level designers across the industry, right?

00:27:01: Like we have had some part in sort of organizing the previous Level Design summits at GDC Game Developers Conference and We talk about this a lot.

00:27:14: This year we did the panel even dedicated state-of-level design in twenty six trying to take inventory off the discipline Right.

00:27:21: And one of the big things that we notice is that specialization is a trend in level design, right?

00:27:28: Where you nowadays have all kinds of more focused designers like people specifically doing mission design.

00:27:35: Right now and our team we are the first sort of technical level designer so that's even sub part of the discipline.

00:27:43: And then You Have Level Designers Who Are More Narrative Oriented More Narrativ Focused.

00:27:50: It Really Just Goes To Show That it Depends On The Project Needs Which Also, on one hand and the other it really depends on team.

00:28:00: What are capabilities of people you've hired?

00:28:04: Can make them function as an all-rounder team that serves a lot needs because requires special hiring or training to get people capable?

00:28:17: Is it more helpful to the project, this studio and more catered for your people that you kind of go narrow?

00:28:22: Right.

00:28:24: We have someone who's like a prime example off our level designers in Witcher four with addressing the entire palette of our needs.

00:28:37: And I know that since we talked about environment art, she's kind of like an environment art favorite because a lot of work that she does is very compatible with things that are environment artists seek which is partially because you have architectural background?

00:28:56: Yes!

00:28:56: That's true.

00:28:58: Cheat code in Neville design.

00:29:00: It definitely helps.

00:29:03: So, let's maybe unpack how the work looks like from day to day.

00:29:06: Where do we start?

00:29:08: We got all this information and have requirements for teams.

00:29:12: so what is first step in level designing.

00:29:15: Do you already jump into engine making beautiful things?

00:29:20: I think it won't be a surprise that we actually started with paper design And its actualy level pitch

00:29:28: Right.

00:29:29: And at first glance, it could seem that it's mostly about gathering ideas and is also has a different function as equally important for us which is kind of driving alignment between all the disciplines involved so we can actually confirm what kind fantasy to build or emotions to evoke?

00:29:52: What gameplay beats will fit with this scope of it will be right what complexity we are going for.

00:30:00: And that's a way, uh... For us to actually discuss with our team then present it also through our leads and agree on the scope in their direction that they want to go into.

00:30:12: this is like the first part.

00:30:13: Yeah

00:30:14: I can add that for me The naming off This Is Weirdly Critical Right?

00:30:20: It's called level design pitch.

00:30:23: We're trying to establish high ownership environment.

00:30:26: Part of that is this philosophy, you're coming up with the idea.

00:30:30: You are turning it into something to do and pitch it for us... ...and sell how wide a good idea can be.

00:30:36: But creative ownership is essentially on an individual designer.

00:30:41: That's really cool!

00:30:43: I agree.

00:30:45: And also level design pitches are a way for us to onboard everybody to our kind of ideas, right?

00:30:54: If you have people behind you that believe in the ideas that you have.

00:30:58: You feel stronger already.

00:31:01: so this is also like a very important part of the pitch.

00:31:05: yeah The best pitches are those that are done collaboratively Right where it's not just level designer looking at our quest design going.

00:31:11: okay I want do this but Ideally, by the time that pitch is being shown to me they've already talked all these other disciplines and you know aligned on what's cool.

00:31:21: What day as a team would like to do right?

00:31:23: Yes exactly.

00:31:24: And it's also more of starting point.

00:31:26: we create an ongoing document out of it.

00:31:29: We get references.

00:31:30: from now one can work But this was moment when actually leave paper design.

00:31:42: This is interesting because the overall pipeline, it's not a constant thing.

00:31:45: We also learn from what we do and try to make it more efficient work better in this complex environment production that we have.

00:31:55: so right now for example after some changes... ...we decided that we want to lean into showing our ideas quickly investing in smaller chunk of the lever to prove something and then scale it up, we also want to introduce gameplay elements early.

00:32:14: You make a playable so that you can experience for yourself.

00:32:18: This is actually this next step.

00:32:19: So preparing a draft where In

00:32:26: this case, you feedback one another like... You have a open session where all of you kind of play let's say a mock-up at the level and then give your feedback to that person who came up with the pitch.

00:32:36: or is it how does the session look in these cases?

00:32:41: Yeah.

00:32:43: At time when we were creating most pitches nowadays We're doing less work on content itself.

00:32:51: It was very much that, right?

00:32:53: We meet occasionally and just have everyone sort of like comment in feedback a specific pitch.

00:32:58: Right we're working in Miro so there's easily people can look at it and comment on stuff And it's pretty straightforward and cool for the person who works On The Bitch is a matter Of then clearing comments which Is in by itself kind of rewarding.

00:33:13: maybe its Just me but Like That's A Pretty Cool Part of the Process.

00:33:18: But Certainly we do this also with our levels that were building, right?

00:33:22: Like every Friday actually still.

00:33:24: We have what we call our internal feedback session.

00:33:28: they get their name right okay and where basically we ordain one level designer to explain the thing They've recently worked on And then Everyone else plays it and we play at pretty hands-off for like an hour Just without basically talking or anything And then we have a feedback session, right?

00:33:51: We sort of commoditize the process also by having like survey format where you can basically just need to answer three questions which I think is liked.

00:34:02: I wonder and wish this was the format

00:34:06: that's cool!

00:34:08: This is a cool way for single level designers get peer feedback really quickly, right?

00:34:16: By now the team is relatively large.

00:34:17: We're nearing fifteen people so you can imagine that just one playthrough gives a lot of data.

00:34:23: and also since we were talking about agency earlier it's this sort-of kind of feedback where you realize okay half of them did THIS thing three of them Did THAT thing And ONE person did like A THING I NEVER expected to happen!

00:34:36: So You Can Take a Lot Of This To Kind of See.

00:34:39: Okay Is This Encouraging?

00:34:41: Is It Something You Want kind of nurture in your level?

00:34:43: or is there something you feel like, oh maybe I should skew it and not have that happen?

00:34:47: Right.

00:34:47: So let's really cool part of the process.

00:34:51: if we can still stop for a moment on this paper design.

00:34:55: We are making massive gains right now just huge.

00:34:58: so i wonder at this point do we For example Is this

00:35:02: plan

00:35:03: In one-to-one scale.

00:35:04: Can we foresee The velocity Of the player?

00:35:07: how much time will take us from Transiting From Point A to B?

00:35:11: Not too small, not to large and boring.

00:35:14: How many pastures should be?

00:35:17: This is interesting question.

00:35:19: I think that level design pitch is more about estimations.

00:35:23: It's...I think it almost impossible actually nail from the very beginning how big something needs to be.

00:35:31: We have for example this in runtime right estimation kind of chart, right?

00:35:38: So how much time player we estimate the player will spend in this beat.

00:35:41: And this is also a way for us to assess should these beats take that match?

00:35:47: Should it be most important than the quest or not Right?

00:35:50: How proportion should look like and so on.

00:35:53: It's more about that.

00:35:55: We don't go into too much detail.

00:35:57: We try to nail down The most important elements That know what work later.

00:36:05: I think this is, um but it's a really cool question because you try right?

00:36:10: You tried to get as much information out of that.

00:36:13: As you can write.

00:36:14: But as Marta said the reality has its often impossible.

00:36:17: Um like we have designers on both ends of the spectrum That tend to build too small and both tend to built Too Much Right.

00:36:26: So for us Really from a production point Of view It's a moment To kind of catch if roughly This Is going in The right Direction.

00:36:33: If for this type of content, is it what we expected?

00:36:39: Skull-wise or way off.

00:36:41: It's a first check to prevent large mishaps from happening but... What we've started adding also was as Amata said like sort of run time estimate that is tied with the emotional state each gameplay beat has.

00:36:59: so let us assume there are quests Three gameplay major beats, right?

00:37:05: So there's introduction to the question.

00:37:07: There is a middle part something-something happening.

00:37:09: Maybe there's an encounter in the middle big boss fight whatever and then that conclusion.

00:37:13: And we tried to split this into level beats by location Right simply okay In the first part you go into I don't know like I don no enter it bar Right and then the other one.

00:37:24: Then you meet in front of a warehouse than you could Go Into The Warehouse Which was a drugged in.

00:37:28: I Don't Know.

00:37:29: do these things Later, you meet at a different bar have an outro conversation and quest ends.

00:37:36: Yeah And we try to sort of estimate then You know.

00:37:43: but on the documentation to say okay The player will spend five minutes at the bar right probably with conversations all that stuff.

00:37:49: This is five minutes.

00:37:51: Then um...the next step- the warehouse.

00:37:53: this Is like big experience thirty minute experience multi level Sort of super complex with boss fight At the end.

00:38:01: And in that warehouse, we want the emotional arc of the player to be like.

00:38:05: they first start out wondering about the location.

00:38:08: Then you know it suddenly turns into a more sort of like worried sort of fearsome atmosphere and then In the end It's like complete Excitement because off You know Like The boss fight?

00:38:21: And you Know lots of explosion one on right and Sort Of like.

00:38:24: this allows us To do multiple things.

00:38:26: First off We can check.

00:38:29: Do we feel the time allocated to this beat is proportionally, so that length of the quest?

00:38:34: Okay.

00:38:36: It's been remarkably powerful tool for us to sort of tweak whether we think were addressing the fun right and sometimes had moments where that barbeat would have like fifteen minutes you know... And then the warehouse will only be ten minutes.

00:38:54: but actually a fun part of this quest happens in this time.

00:38:58: You should probably change the proportions and also emotionally it allows us to check, okay can we potentially build this arc right?

00:39:07: Is this Quest one where you will want to spend most over a time terrified and scared?

00:39:13: maybe not... Maybe actually the emotional state is very different because there's themes like blah blah.

00:39:20: so There are lots that and assess from this first paper design.

00:39:27: Yeah, you probably noticed that we kind of underline that defining target emotion flow and pacing is like the main focus of the eleven-cent pitch.

00:39:38: in a way it's like this because surprisingly those first iterations and changes sometimes come on let us say draft phase.

00:39:49: they came beat.

00:39:53: this part of the quest fits the vision of game, right?

00:39:56: So we always look at it through the lens.

00:40:02: And more detailed solutions.

00:40:04: our discipline excellence.

00:40:06: This is something that usually are quite confident We can work without some point.

00:40:12: The most important thing in the beginning for us Is does this be to really fit the quest or there's a risk It will cut after A few.

00:40:24: The result being, and I think this might be important for every listener as well especially the more sort of like you know people who are trying to break into industry first level design suck!

00:40:33: They're bad right?

00:40:34: Just from a level-designed technicality perspective they're not great pieces.

00:40:39: but these aren't all questions we were trying answer because where as Marta said We reasonably confident that...we can make it good once figure out what is that we want.

00:40:47: so thats more important at the beginning And it kind of speaks a lot to, I'll move into draft territory right now.

00:40:57: There's two things here.

00:40:58: first off this sounds like very rigorous sort straightforward process but i think one the most fun thing at Red that we do is generally allow for some dynamicism in our pipelines.

00:41:09: so you're kinda like I am when comes to three D and paper design.

00:41:15: personally im not huge fan just starting Like literally scribbling my level layout, right?

00:41:21: I'm a person like if i can't jump straight into the engine and just shape something out then get it feel.

00:41:27: And for pitch- If I were to do one which is very rare... Then would rather take screenshots of my sketch there draw over that as basis because from me brain works more like that.

00:41:43: need have something to chew away on in three D. Um, but we allow for that.

00:41:48: Right?

00:41:49: If you're like that cool go

00:41:50: ahead through.

00:41:51: it is flexible.

00:41:52: for yeah

00:41:52: exactly.

00:41:52: and We do this also with the environment our pipeline that we talked about earlier.

00:41:56: right Like we have a moment where we say Yeah This Is The point Where we want to give the LD blockout To the artist right But Occasionally will Have Blockouts That are just made by an Artist right Where the level designer Steps Back And Just Says hey Just make sure metrics, right?

00:42:11: Like this is fine.

00:42:12: And then you know go ahead.

00:42:13: so a lot of these variants and flexibility super-super important to us because it harnesses strengths rights and overcomes weaknesses on its just fun.

00:42:24: um the other thing when it comes to our drafting pipeline Right The Thing We Are More and more focusing On Over technical excellence at stage Of creating Our first drafts Is intentionality.

00:42:38: is that a word?

00:42:39: intentions basically.

00:42:43: What we're seeing, it's more and more important just to make sure when someone looks at this first draft they get what the level look like?

00:42:54: They got narrative context or gameplay intension.

00:42:59: so no one needs you be able genuinely fight, you know like this awesome encounter right there.

00:43:05: We don't need the big shootout.

00:43:07: but if I look at this and i see a few enemies And I have seen some cover placed in all that stuff... ...I understand That.

00:43:13: oh!

00:43:13: You're probably planning Some sort of major shoot out There Right?

00:43:17: Have.. I Don't Know.

00:43:20: What do we use it Like?

00:43:21: have like A red Sort Of you know Barrel Shaped element next to an enemy.

00:43:25: I can read It that, OK you probably want me to shoot this thing and explode.

00:43:30: it kills the guy standing next.

00:43:32: You don't need gameplay implemented to tell this kind of story right?

00:43:36: And is the same for narrative context?

00:43:39: people often wonder where they should spend their detail on a blockade.

00:43:43: how much details are enough or when is too far?

00:43:47: we always say depends what your trying to say.

00:43:51: like you dont need to decorate every single loot room but The level needs to explain back.

00:43:58: To me what it is, right?

00:44:00: And if you're preparing the warehouse that has been turned into a drug den that I talked about earlier... ...I don't need want you to need to explain that to me.

00:44:09: i want to go Into the level and see oh this Is a warehouse and then I can See who does look like A drug lab.

00:44:14: Right because You put Like Some Burners There and like in A little vials or Something right and for That you Can add extra detail.

00:44:25: that's really what we need these first sort of iterations to do, because then we can play it and test it.

00:44:31: And see does it work with our narrative intentions?

00:44:34: Right Because maybe who knows Maybe warehouse with drug den blah, blah is not the right thing We need for.

00:44:41: Do you feel like when you're designing things, do you want to have some type of constraints?

00:44:45: When it comes to the thing that can be done.

00:44:47: or do you kind-of want since a sandbox game and...do you wanna create freedom for anything.

00:44:55: Like I said let's take The Warehouse.

00:44:57: sometimes we have A Warehouse.

00:45:00: as a player, you go into the warehouse and kind of see like okay I have this point for cover.

00:45:13: This is probably how to do it but let's screw with that way.

00:45:17: so Do You Feel Like It's Better For You When You're Designing Things To Have This Constraint That You Know These Things Need To Be Here Or You Want To Have The Creativity?

00:45:28: I think the player might just do something wacky and instead of using the cover, they might go around an enemy.

00:45:35: Do you like constraints or do you like to come up with something totally different?

00:45:45: Well we...I think that all level designers love creative freedom right.

00:45:51: so if can provide more options then very much would like to do so.

00:45:57: But there are different things in play usually that we kind of touched on before, right?

00:46:02: That sometimes it's actually needed for example narrative reasons too... For example streamlines this experience a bit but overall if possible yes!

00:46:15: I think the discussion also touches upon context.

00:46:19: If its easy work without contexts and If you don't have a context to work in, usually need to create one.

00:46:29: So it's actually much more work and research to do so.

00:46:34: Usually when you have something this is the starting point that you can kind of think about ideas around right?

00:46:41: I Think they're not exclusive.

00:46:42: You know i find limitations are incredibly conductive too creative and creativity in creative processes.

00:46:51: This is a bit of an boring answer, I think you'll hear this from every artist we talk to that these limitations are what births creativity but it's really the same in gameplay.

00:47:01: You'd be surprised how much you can do with an explosive barrel.

00:47:06: Once you add, like I don't know... In Cyberpunk We had these ragdoll mechanics.

00:47:12: maybe there was a terrible example actually because Yeah, I don't know.

00:47:18: But like a different example i can give is the uh yeah in infatability the Cerberus.

00:47:24: it's basically you know at the end of the day more or less one big hack right?

00:47:28: Like this using our systems that we had What I'd like to think a pretty creative way and you know, it exploits.

00:47:37: A lot of the engine works under hood right sort of like hey You know.

00:47:42: And we needed to alter some of the behavior of NPCs to make what this was doing possible.

00:47:48: But survival horror is not inherently part of the repertoire.

00:47:51: yet We were able to sort of craft this by creatively bending Some of the rules that we had but we stayed entirely within The rule set.

00:48:01: Likewise, I mean one of the examples that internally we bring up very often is a colleague of ours, Mario Skubov.

00:48:10: He created in this baseball there's like...I think it's in the space board right?

00:48:15: Is where there's a helicopter that kind of exploding and That is like level design original Right There's no prepared animation for these but basically using our own internal tool sets to kinda really cheaply just believably enough to create this sort of, you know like exploding or moving helicopter.

00:48:35: I don't remember.

00:48:36: and if you can create tools that support the designers creativity within their capabilities off what they said?

00:48:46: That's really ideal case because then it makes you think creatively how you can bend it.

00:48:54: As Mata said, people like creative freedom.

00:48:56: so I think the gravity is towards that right?

00:48:58: You will try to go for as crazy as you can.

00:49:01: So bringing in some rulesets would still allow you do crazy but It'll be controlled.

00:49:07: Yeah i think its also important from players perspective because sometimes when playing a game you don't want it feel kind of like A Game Of chess which pretty much plays the same.

00:49:18: But you kinda wanna have this.

00:49:21: we do games that have like choices and consequences.

00:49:24: And player agency is super important, so in order for them to not feel bored or not... That they need to a certain thing-a certain way?

00:49:31: Like..that gives the most of their freedom!

00:49:33: So I think players also appreciate that because they're like oh what did you do

00:49:37: here?!

00:49:37: Oh on this level it's just well.

00:49:39: i totally took like a different approach.

00:49:41: It was kind of with cyberpunk Go totally stealth and do things.

00:49:47: or if you were like a player Like I am which I hate doing self stuff.

00:49:51: You could just go in guns blazing And still both options would work.

00:49:55: But then If i replay the level, I will try it The other way around to kind of see what the possibilities are.

00:50:01: There's so much freedom here In terms Of Things That I can Do.

00:50:04: So there is no one Golden

00:50:06: Rule Or

00:50:06: Path that I need To Take Which It Just Makes The Games More Engaging More Believable More Realistic Let'S Say Because you're role-playing.

00:50:15: You really

00:50:16: think this is why it's highly interesting to us also because as a studio we value believability in our games almost more than anything, right?

00:50:23: And its an intriguing flavor of design In general at red I would say but also for level design where You know, we do care.

00:50:34: I remember when it started and Witcher three And one of the first things i got to Do was a sewer?

00:50:42: And now had The pleasure Of building like this...I think the First Sewer Under under Novigrad City.

00:50:47: Oh no!

00:50:48: It wasn't the Frog Boss

00:50:49: No-no-no This Was way later right.

00:50:51: But then..and Then Remember Talking To Lucia Or you Know Like Art Director On Which For These Days He basically like he baffled me by basically looking at my work, which I was incredibly proud of.

00:51:05: Like cool play space and saying well But that doesn't really make sense because back then they didn't really have huge pump systems or stuff.

00:51:12: So you can't have like random basins off water just filling.

00:51:16: technically You would need to have a gradient Falling towards the ocean side so that when you have the water from the sewage system going often it kind of naturally flow And unlike

00:51:28: Yeah,

00:51:28: okay.

00:51:31: Right?

00:51:31: This is the level we're playing on right and you know ever since then all the sewers I've made like a...I find this feedback i have been giving to people I've been mentoring when they get build their sewers and it's an oddly thing but just goes show how far in parts take us can be pretty painful at times.

00:51:51: everyone here sort of work with studio can attest that because its always harder path.

00:51:55: That's

00:51:57: on this realism.

00:51:58: It is very interesting, actually because we always want to make things as realistic and immersive as possible.

00:52:04: but then we have game logic gameplay where you need to be fun and readable etc.

00:52:09: so I wonder how do you balance that?

00:52:11: For example like you said the red barrels right or sometimes in games we see edges highlighted yellow to jump into there.

00:52:18: it's signposting.

00:52:23: Or sometimes you said, You're entering a warehouse.

00:52:25: Do you see the barrels covered?

00:52:26: Okay that's a boss fight.

00:52:27: for sure it is an arena.

00:52:28: so Is It good if player notices That your playing and set up something For him?

00:52:35: or we try to hide those things And make this navigation much more subtle?

00:52:40: not in Your face

00:52:41: Because its kind of like The yellow arrow thing.

00:52:44: I'll take another sip Of vodka just because Its very controversial topic In the level design space.

00:52:49: Then i let Marta Take the hit.

00:52:50: Yes.

00:52:53: Yeah, I know that we all don't really like yellow arrows in general but i think it's actually a balancing act right?

00:53:02: When you have relatively simple space this yellow arrow shows where to go even if your are on the corridor and only one way out could feel that it's really unnecessary, right?

00:53:17: But the more complex space you have... I think players actually welcome some guidance.

00:53:24: That will help them.

00:53:26: however Yellow Hour is out of character probably any space apart from

00:53:32: cyberpunk

00:53:35: maybe visual identification very modern spaces and so on.

00:53:40: So we usually try to Come up with a visual language because this is very important, right?

00:53:47: To come up with the consistent language that players are kind of taught about at the beginning and then they can recognize in base of that make some assumptions and decisions when playing.

00:53:57: So we try to come out with a visually language That actually fits into the world And if possible it's even diagetic like its part of the word.

00:54:04: Right that would-that Is actually an ideal solution for us.

00:54:08: It's not always easy.

00:54:09: Diagetic

00:54:09: means you recognize things in the game.

00:54:12: You don't need UI to punch out of way, but...

00:54:16: Exactly!

00:54:16: It's like a signpost on road for example.

00:54:19: so it is actually part of how this world functions.

00:54:24: So, yeah that would be actually ideal solutions for us.

00:54:27: it's not always possible but we try to always adapt this visual language through a certain artistic vision that is present in the game.

00:54:37: right.

00:54:37: so... Not making it too obvious more subtle like you mentioned before But at the same time recognizable.

00:54:45: Those might be things that probably impact the entire project from an artistic side.

00:54:49: I'm wondering, for example you restrict some colors for a guiding player and try not to use them at other places because they will confuse?

00:54:58: Because we need to work with contrasts when it comes to clarity of these spaces.

00:55:04: The challenge really is... And this why its so controversial in the context of what it is we're doing, which is making games.

00:55:18: But like truly you know... We've tried.

00:55:23: I have some practical examples also from Phantom Movie working on that bunker piece where intentionally we said, okay.

00:55:28: We'll remove the minimap will try to go full diagetic guidance right with science and everything.

00:55:33: And The big takeaway is this?

00:55:36: I know a lot of developers around the world share these takeaways that it doesn't work without Right, like.

00:55:46: the truth is if you do leave guidance elements and we're not even talking about how subtle it.

00:55:52: Is right or not?

00:55:53: And how diegetic it is or not but if you leave out this part of design It doesn't really work.

00:56:01: You know Like.

00:56:01: so it's not a matter I think About whether there should be guidance elements that help players navigate on or in themselves Or not But rather A matter of how subtle can you make them or how creative.

00:56:14: Can you make a creative?

00:56:16: Can you be with implementing them versus, uh You know How much do you need for players to pick up on them?

00:56:24: even enough.

00:56:25: there's some sort of sweet spot right.

00:56:28: the difficult thing is that this sweet spot It's not one point, but it kind of moves depending on the context or game and how modern is.

00:56:37: I had this experience two days ago in an underground parking lot And that was very confusingly built to me.

00:56:46: But when i got out there were multiple lanes with arrows Kind of stripes, but they were kind of slanted so they would foam arrows to where you need go and I looked at that.

00:57:00: And went okay?

00:57:02: I Don't have a problem with that.

00:57:03: I think this is great.

00:57:04: I want all these right.

00:57:06: it works for me if This wasn't a game what people be upset or not Right now.

00:57:11: It kinda made me think that i think the answer here really probably Is not So much That The um You know yellow arrows Or whatever in games are stripes Are wrong.

00:57:21: its just how Much the player willing to buy into it.

00:57:25: at that moment in time, right?

00:57:27: Because of the moment I was like yeah this totally helps me and makes sense.

00:57:30: And even if its literal arrows i'm okay with it!

00:57:35: And...I think we have a lot of counter example where you know the solution is diagetic.

00:57:41: but clearly diagetics isn't enough.

00:57:43: just because someone put paint somewhere on level The player doesn't instantly buy it.

00:57:49: so context needs be such.

00:57:51: when he looks they feel Yeah, but it's not so much about them noticing the magic happening here.

00:57:57: But rather is I'm going yeah okay?

00:57:59: Okay fine right.

00:58:00: and i think if you can hit that spot constantly And That Can Change from location level to Level Right You'll Be Fine.

00:58:07: The Challenging Thing Is!

00:58:09: And I Think You With Your Art Affiliation Will Also Sort Of Testify To That.

00:58:14: How Can You Make That At Work Globally Right?

00:58:17: Because you can't do custom every single time, right.

00:58:21: You need to find that visual language that... Every single security camera in the game needs basically be understood as an interactive object or not.

00:58:31: player learning over the game, like you're teaching them some patterns and then when you break the pattern and use different ones it becomes confusing.

00:58:38: or using these cameras but that's from some point of the game.

00:58:41: they doesn't work that way anymore.

00:58:43: It is confusing.

00:58:44: if I think get on a path make something significant...it needs to stay significant across all games.

00:58:51: But context is important.

00:58:52: as we said Some locations are super busy so you need arrows.

00:58:55: Some are simple enough.

00:58:56: maybe guidance with lighting composition You know?

00:59:01: It's actually interesting because I think that there is more to that.

00:59:04: Guidance it not only visual language, right?

00:59:06: And the better other techniques work... The more subtle visual guidance can be.

00:59:10: Because yeah There are much-much more than how space is structured if its understandable and readable from very start.

00:59:19: All composition techniques contrast clarity negative space but also controlling player's position if something is in their field of view and then so on.

00:59:30: And using those additional elements that we can use, right?

00:59:33: Dynamic element

00:59:34: color

00:59:35: even... We could even use narration to actually point players to something that you want them see.

00:59:42: If all of this works well Then this marking doesn't need to be.

00:59:50: I totally agree with it.

00:59:52: This is one of the most challenging, but also more fun parts for me.

00:59:55: and level design.

00:59:56: And design work in general right?

00:59:58: Just sort of like conciling this guidance as many layers that in by themselves they might not do a lot But if applied.

01:00:08: you mentioned composition.

01:00:10: lighting movement can be one thing The flow structure of the level itself If it does have downflow then player cannot understand.

01:00:20: they're picking up on it and are like, to progress I need go down.

01:00:23: And if something that have a path goes out there... Like this goes back but can't tell why right?

01:00:29: Because you've established the pattern.

01:00:30: so how do combine all of these elements early-on when we test for them?

01:00:39: because the practical problem with is just takes time at work in iterating towards that.

01:00:45: often times production have everything even, right?

01:00:48: Like if you're making a not an expansion.

01:00:52: You are basically working on with like completely new stuff.

01:00:55: He might not have half the assets that we need to do this sort of.

01:00:58: there's no light and or other red arrow that were using everywhere doesn't even exist.

01:01:06: No one made it yet Right.

01:01:07: And so if you Need To

01:01:09: Sort Of

01:01:10: Have A Lot Of Faith in that the stuff you're building, even if guidance isn't so good yet.

01:01:16: That every iteration slightly gets better because alternative would be to front load all of it but then make yourself vulnerable.

01:01:24: just one narrative iteration or like art iteration or anything kind of wiping out.

01:01:30: and how do create an experience that is playable and can reveal itself as a bad experience?

01:01:40: Not having access to all this or not over committing.

01:01:43: Yeah,

01:01:44: yeah a good experience.

01:01:45: I think it's the most important thing because sometimes you kind of You see things they're like oh no i have to do is this way?

01:01:50: I don't want to do it This way.

01:01:51: so what about?

01:01:52: uh The agents of chaos that kind of go in and they wanna Do things their own way.

01:01:57: This is something that you need to, of course.

01:01:59: You need to account for it but I feel like we love chaos at Redd so... We're totally kind of also looking into the players who kinda wanna do things which- Do remember

01:02:09: double jumping in Funtool Liberty and there was someone said hey!

01:02:12: You can double jump?

01:02:13: No you can't or you cannot prove yourself as a whole.

01:02:16: people testing everything they say where exactly could go with Double Jump because there's Double Jump dashed on some thing.

01:02:25: I think with sorry about it, particularly we have so many stories of this which i think like.

01:02:30: Will use to say This is for me if you get that point where ages of chaos can thrive mm-hmm We've done a good job right because the reality Is That those are The most fun moments and they test your systems And If They hold Up It's A Thing Of Beauty Really Right.

01:02:46: Like Sometimes For Developers Its The Stuff Of Nightmares And Pain Because We Need To Figure Out.

01:02:53: Do we want this to be legal?

01:02:54: Or is there something I really need to figure out.

01:02:57: If it isn't legal, how much work does that do?

01:03:00: secure on a global scale within the game?

01:03:03: right and then remember story I tell often because left such an impact on me was two of them actually one here during the later stages of Cyberpunk's development, and I found myself in a room with QA team talking about completely unrelated sort-of topic.

01:03:23: And then just by sheer chance... ...I watch over the shoulders one of the testers playing on my levels….

01:03:29: …and was like what?

01:03:30: Okay they're doing something!

01:03:31: Ah it is point where i don't want them to continue.. ..i have two guards & security camera – this is my strong telltale for the player.

01:03:39: try to find another way!

01:03:42: What does this guy do?

01:03:43: Turns on Sundevistan.

01:03:45: Slows down time, which I learned at that moment slows down the detection meter as well and just kind of walks past everyone.

01:03:51: And i

01:03:53: was like

01:03:54: oh my

01:03:55: God, this changes everything that I went to the level design.

01:04:00: It was like, oh my god guys they can do it!

01:04:02: They actually had conversations with...I don't think we did anything about them but we have a conversation in the gameplay team where he's like.

01:04:09: Can We Forbid This?

01:04:10: Is there something you could change?

01:04:12: But at end of the game we kept it right.

01:04:14: and another thing is one people who got into play very early German content creator and a good friend of mine.

01:04:26: And he was playing like one part in Watson district, because we have many of them at Cyberpunk where I don't think you were able to get in from the rooftop but there were these windows right?

01:04:42: He looked it up tried open it couldn't then realized that for some reason window was destructible by punching.

01:04:53: So he spent like five minutes punching a V-sized hole into the rooftop window until eventually could get in from.

01:05:02: The level still worked, right?

01:05:03: He got in and he felt like Tom Cruise infiltrating the warehouse just with a bloody fist.

01:05:12: And it was super cool because I stood there terrified thinking oh my god!

01:05:16: Like.

01:05:16: i'm not sure if the level can hold this

01:05:18: pressure

01:05:19: but it worked and had a cool time.

01:05:23: This agency that he felt at that moment is really good part of his experience.

01:05:27: so these days getting back to believability I think this kind of gameplay meshes really well with how we perceive making open-world roleplaying games, because it is essentially a form of role playing.

01:05:42: Giving you the creative freedom to be the character that you want do and play the way you want to do and sort of roleplay that so its natural for us cause also should be believable.

01:05:55: support these kinds things as much

01:05:58: Not to use too much glass walls, I guess.

01:06:00: Yeah like you know making sure they're punch proof.

01:06:05: Do we want to limit players sometimes?

01:06:07: Like just put a put like a barrier don't go here.

01:06:11: and or do We kind of think now let's not do hard barriers Let's do maybe soft barriers and stuff like

01:06:18: that.

01:06:18: Want two all the time?

01:06:22: Yes We want to support player agency as much we can, right?

01:06:27: But we then need to kind of embrace all the consequences.

01:06:33: So if you allow players actually pass a certain barrier even it requires effort or challenge... ...we take into account that they can leave behind and become optional for example.

01:06:47: We agree on certain non-linearity then, right?

01:06:51: And it all I think comes back to what we want to achieve at a certain beat and how much time and effort we need put into kind of preparing certain scenarios for things that players can do.

01:07:04: We often try

01:07:13: If we have to now kind of draw a comparison between Witcher three and Cyberpunk since these are totally different games.

01:07:20: in my opinion when it comes even, you know how You play the game like cyberpunk first person Which is three third-person?

01:07:28: And one you have horizontal exploration there.

01:07:31: The other ones more vertical.

01:07:33: When it comes to level design aspects Like when you were looking into these things calibrating from the witcher tree and moving into cyberpunk How difficult was that?

01:07:41: uh, in terms of like level design.

01:07:43: Did you have to kind of reinvent the wheel on how you do things?

01:07:47: Or was it like?

01:07:49: Oh I-I Have a lot of cool ideas and for sure this would work in Cyberpunk better than i did in The Witcher three For example.

01:07:57: I think first and foremost It's very exciting project right Like one.

01:08:00: other.

01:08:01: reasons that kept me at dread over all these years is no matter which part of the like it's the project in by itself but also the disciplines and buy themselves.

01:08:12: They all try to push them selves another level right?

01:08:16: And if you look at from purely with a level design perspective, that difference between Witcher three and Cyberpunk is enormous.

01:08:23: as I said earlier about the capabilities off you know Geralt versus V. so the excitement really comes.

01:08:34: we get all these new opportunities, right?

01:08:37: Yes it's a lot more work but there are lots of things to consider.

01:08:41: But the stuff that can be done with our muscles here is really exciting and I think this will always try.

01:08:58: The challenges are almost secondary, right?

01:09:00: Because they're part of the fun.

01:09:01: And we've talked about the particulars of this quite often or certainly I have where you know... Oh!

01:09:09: ...the perception of space between first person and third person is drastically different Right?

01:09:14: Like i remember it took us so long just to figure out correct FOV both vertical horizontal in cyberpunk.

01:09:23: iterating on that was also pretty tough because you'd built a level of one FOV setting, right?

01:09:28: And then two weeks later we figured oh this FOV settings actually way better and works much better for what we have in game.

01:09:34: You play the level like this is tiny now!

01:09:37: What

01:09:37: happened?!

01:09:38: Or it's huge... Then

01:09:40: put into settings so I can change it.

01:09:42: Yes yes.. One other big challenge Cyberpunk is a seamless experience, right?

01:09:48: So interiors need to match exteriors or vice versa for the first...for the widest part of the game.

01:09:57: And sometimes basically reconciling how big an interior space needed it be to provide engaging gameplay opportunities versus how big that would make the building look like was pretty tough to be honest and we I think had to deploy a few cheats, design tricks as you would say.

01:10:21: To make this work right?

01:10:22: Part of the reason is that Grand Imperial Mall for example it's a bit self-contained because... You don't really have references other buildings around here saying look!

01:10:34: This is much bigger than your average building.

01:10:38: It's same with the Maelstrom factory factory that you go to, right?

01:10:44: Like so all our Konpeki Plaza.

01:10:45: They're gigantic interiors with gigantic exteriors to match.

01:10:50: but we tried to mask it a bit and then in the more central places where we still had to apply this stuff usually merged buildings in ways were either very clear from outside or not-so-clear an example there being I think literally the scavenger apartment at very, beginning right where you go and rescue Sandra Dorsett is that building.

01:11:17: That it's basically merged apartments because we...I remember this.

01:11:21: We were looking to deal with drawing in out sort of measuring also the meters.

01:11:26: just i think This was more like a metric exercise.

01:11:29: how much space do we need to do gun combat?

01:11:31: And all that stuff in a hundred twenty square meters apartment.

01:11:36: And this is sort of the shoddiest, cheapest part of the city?

01:11:39: How does that play it?

01:11:41: and just if you take those metrics right.

01:11:44: but yet It wasn't enough for the shootouts.

01:11:46: we wanted to do so We decided these guys had broken down walls Right and merged multiple apartments.

01:11:55: But

01:11:56: also you make it, its rooted in reality.

01:11:58: So we kind of try to bring into a place where actually makes sense but not something that feels like is just taken out for the sense of doing

01:12:11: this.

01:12:16: and how often can you build apartments with broken down walls?

01:12:24: create the space that is also believable but also playable.

01:12:28: Perfect, all

01:12:29: right.

01:12:30: I was wondering hiring new levels if i want to be a level designer or am a level design what you're looking for in context of our games?

01:12:39: What we do here how we approach level design which are looking for portfolios people reaching out us.

01:12:46: well We can start actually with something like a core of the level design role.

01:12:51: So we work in space, right?

01:12:54: We shape space so certain spatial imagination and ability to create freely spaces is very much required.

01:13:04: but certain requirements come from the specifics of our project And for example Witcher IP.

01:13:12: it's a very unique recipe.

01:13:16: Actually, one of the most common feedback points that I hear is or are there questions?

01:13:21: Is it really The Witcher.

01:13:22: Does It feel like The Witcher does it with a Witcher Viper and then so on?

01:13:28: And it's really highly narrative dependent.

01:13:32: So we try to test if someone can up can come up on their own with narrative context for the even test level that they are building.

01:13:38: That it makes sense and is believable, because another important part of our project to make the world feel grounded.

01:13:47: so we actually check creative capabilities In a way, we check if they can come up with interesting gameplay solutions.

01:13:58: For example that I still feel grounded and fit the world in for very intuitive.

01:14:03: And there is the third part to it as a dark fantasy right?

01:14:06: So we check If they at least know about the

01:14:09: lore.

01:14:10: do They include some dark twists here under or maybe at least tease of the build in their test levels.

01:14:17: so all Of those need to work together compose our test level requirements in a way that we can at least see the potential, but they can do it.

01:14:31: I think another part of that aspect to add is as you mentioned before this set of responsibilities are pretty large for level designers and that's only possible with people that have a certain mentality, right?

01:14:51: So something that we try to screen for quite rigorously.

01:14:56: To the point where actually you know... We get a ton of applications.

01:15:01: it's uh..we're very lucky and privileged with that.

01:15:03: but its also lotta work.

01:15:04: so what started is really democratize the recruitment process internally in team right.

01:15:10: basically Marta all other things there involved in screening candidates.

01:15:15: We have, you know some sort of format to discuss each candidate and sort of decide democratically too forward them because it's really important for us to find people with the right mindset Right?

01:15:27: And um The skill is something we can train more than happy to train when if You have this mindset which is like high level initiative being very driven person rights active problem solving attitude, you know people who we basically I have jokingly say oftentimes like i can give a problem and they Can make it go away.

01:15:47: Yeah And this is a mindset that You can tell relatively easily if someone actually has It independent of their experience level right?

01:15:57: Like it can be the super hungry junior Right but the same sort of hunger you kind of expect to see from even, you know the most jaded senior developers who've been in the industry for a long time.

01:16:09: And if we can't identify that then it almost doesn't matter how good your work is right?

01:16:16: Like The Work Sample technique this what opens door to conversation but really What We often find Is the biggest KO criteria For deciding whether or not we go forward with a cannon or Not exactly that attitude How well they cooperate.

01:16:33: the nuance here is quite a bit more complex, even because you can have someone who's really driven but then maybe they're not very nice person.

01:16:44: There are lots

01:16:44: of communication involved as well with this party and all these teams and groups.

01:16:48: And also inter-team

01:16:49: discussions in collaboration.

01:16:51: that's super important.

01:16:52: This

01:16:52: why it so important right?

01:16:53: Because level desires form connections and bridges to other disciplines.

01:16:58: If this person cannot collaborate or have an open mind they will just sort of suffocate in that role, right?

01:17:06: Because at the end of day it's not about getting instructions from other disciplines like hey I need this and then but actively asking.

01:17:16: Actively reconciling.

01:17:19: The art team wants this, but the game team wants.

01:17:22: This is a level design.

01:17:23: I have these needs.

01:17:24: how do i kind of get These people in room right?

01:17:26: so A lot Of that role is also actively talking to People and facilitating stuff.

01:17:31: Right.

01:17:31: And uh That doesn't matter.

01:17:34: the experience Level.

01:17:35: it's hard To show those things In portfolio.

01:17:37: Yes yes So this Is one why you know.

01:17:41: Like the Portfolio for us It an important piece like more broadly filtered candidates.

01:17:47: And as Mata said, here we look at that.

01:17:50: is the person aware of?

01:17:52: you know building things believably?

01:17:55: Or do we have the sense that we could at least sort of push them towards that?

01:18:00: because frankly other studios or other games might not ask that?

01:18:03: so it's on yeah.

01:18:05: and then The Other Thing Is Like How Do They Work In Understand Space Right?

01:18:11: Can You Tell That?

01:18:12: You know, the best designers.

01:18:14: They will not just create gameplay spaces that fit whatever game play you have but they will be aware of how The shape of this space also impacts the emotional state Of the player.

01:18:24: right.

01:18:24: so like a more claustrophobic ceiling can Also make the battleground feel A bit more scary or depressing all whatnot Right?

01:18:33: So is This something we Can showcase?

01:18:36: it can see right.

01:18:37: and Then the last thing Is also Just efficiency, right?

01:18:41: Where do they spend their time and where did I spent the effort.

01:18:45: And how much intentionality to showcase?

01:18:48: yeah but once that is sort of ticked off we kinda move through interviews very quickly.

01:18:56: awesome if you have some up.

01:18:57: cuz were coming to end after episode.

01:19:01: How do see without course spoiling anything Which are four related.

01:19:08: How do you see the future of level design?

01:19:10: If he had to like sum it up in terms of The games that we do, I know is very broad.

01:19:17: Yeah That's a tough one at the end.

01:19:22: One thing that i noticed Is huge difference between The role of Level Design team when I joined CDPR and how It actually now.

01:19:34: Our role is becoming more and more important.

01:19:37: We are more visible in the team, And also other team members Are actually more aware of what we can do.

01:19:45: They start to come as they're aware.

01:19:48: I think that this will evolve into the future.

01:19:52: It's like a good momentum, and the most important thing is that we don't stop.

01:19:56: We try to be better.

01:19:57: We check our pipelines, we check our principles in processes, and we try to improve them And rest of it actually moving with how we want to improve our projects.

01:20:10: There are lots cool interesting things there That you can really talk about.

01:20:15: But yeah I'm very excited at what level design fits into this vision.

01:20:21: I'm happy to hear that.

01:20:50: It's really not so much anymore about talking the talk.

01:20:53: I'm proving to people that we can do things but actually prove That We Can execute.

01:20:59: yeah, and i think if.

01:21:00: We can prove that then The standing of this plan as a discipline As A whole will only improve And hopefully People you know Will see Exactly what have always been aiming To Do.

01:21:17: that level design is tool to elevate the experience at large, right?

01:21:23: And if whether you're a cinematic designer or quest design are all whatnot.

01:21:27: Right.

01:21:28: Collaborating with a level design team is in your benefit because it will make your stuff really shine.

01:21:36: well son I think that puts a pin in.

01:21:39: Thank you both for joining us, it was amazing to talk with.

01:21:42: I feel like the conversation flowed so well... So easily!

01:21:44: We got back four hours.

01:21:46: It's just super interesting to get a deep dive into level design and thank-you very much

01:21:49: for taking your time.

01:21:50: Thanks for having

01:21:51: me.

01:21:51: Yes, thanks a lot.

01:21:52: Thank-you

01:21:54: for watching this episode – it was an fascinating journey in the world of architects of worlds people who have on their shoulders the challenge of balancing interests of narrative gameplay AND

01:22:03: art.

01:22:04: Beautifully

01:22:05: said…I could not sum it up better myself But as always, don't forget to

01:22:09: comment like subscribe

01:22:10: all this jazz.

01:22:11: Let us know what you're thinking

01:22:12: about the episodes

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01:22:15: Bye.